Uploaded April 2026 | Updated September 2026, 3 weeks ago
How should a central bank respond to energy shocks? Will high oil and gas prices bolster the uptake of renewables? And what is the true cost of net zero 2050?
This week on Cleaning Up, host Michael Liebreich sits down with Pierre Wunsch, Governor of the National Bank of Belgium and member of the European Central Bank’s governing council, for a candid, behind-the-scenes discussion about how central banks should and can respond to inflation, energy volatility, and climate transition.
From the recent surge in oil and gas prices to the lessons learned from post-COVID inflation, Wunsch explains why central banks may have “got it wrong” during the Russia-Ukraine energy shock, and how they’re rethinking their response to supply shocks.
Michael and Pierre dive into:
• The costs of net zero, and why a one-size fits all approach to decarbonisation isn’t working.
• Whether European economies can absorb the costs transition without losing competitiveness
• Why “transitory inflation” didn’t stay transitory during the Russia-Ukraine war
• The risk of political backlash and policy instability
• Why industry, not households, is the hardest part of decarbonisation for Europe
• The gap between climate ambition and credible policy tools.
Leadership Circle:
Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live
Links and more:
• Pierre Wunsch bio: nbb.be/en/cv/pierre-wunsch
• National Bank of Belgium’s Research on Climate: nbb.be/en/publications-research/publications/topics/climate
• How China Became a Green Finance Superpower - Ep160: Dr. Ma Jun: youtube.com/watch?v=Fu6giWzTxAY
• The 130 Trillion-Dollar Man - Ep84: Mark Carney: youtube.com/watch?v=HtA5ufMzKAU
Chapters:
00:00 - Intro
05:33 - Inflation and Energy Shock
10:30 - Rising Interest Rates
16:00 - Cost of Oil Shocks
20:00 - Green Premium
22:00 - Cost of Net Zero 2050
28:00 - Challenging Assumptions
34:00 - How Much Should We Care?
37:00 - Independence of Central Banks
40:30 - Stability & Collapse
46:00 - Costs of Inaction
50:44 - Credible Carbon Price
57:00 - Industry & Competition
01:02:00 - Avoiding Lose Lose Lose
01:05:10 - Outro
How should a central bank respond to energy shocks? Will high oil and gas prices bolster the uptake of renewables? And what is the true cost of net zero 2050?
This week on Cleaning Up, host Michael Liebreich sits down with Pierre Wunsch, Governor of the National Bank of Belgium and member of the European Central Bank’s governing council, for a candid, behind-the-scenes discussion about how central banks should and can respond to inflation, energy volatility, and climate transition.
From the recent surge in oil and gas prices to the lessons learned from post-COVID inflation, Wunsch explains why central banks may have “got it wrong” during the Russia-Ukraine energy shock, and how they’re rethinking their response to supply shocks.
Michael and Pierre dive into:
• The costs of net zero, and why a one-size fits all approach to decarbonisation isn’t working.
• Whether European economies can absorb the costs transition without losing competitiveness
• Why “transitory inflation” didn’t stay transitory during the Russia-Ukraine war
• The risk of political backlash and policy instability
• Why industry, not households, is the hardest part of decarbonisation for Europe
• The gap between climate ambition and credible policy tools.
Leadership Circle:
Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live
Links and more:
• Pierre Wunsch bio: nbb.be/en/cv/pierre-wunsch
• National Bank of Belgium’s Research on Climate: nbb.be/en/publications-research/publications/topics/climate
• How China Became a Green Finance Superpower - Ep160: Dr. Ma Jun: youtube.com/watch?v=Fu6giWzTxAY
• The 130 Trillion-Dollar Man - Ep84: Mark Carney: youtube.com/watch?v=HtA5ufMzKAU
Chapters:
00:00 - Intro
05:33 - Inflation and Energy Shock
10:30 - Rising Interest Rates
16:00 - Cost of Oil Shocks
20:00 - Green Premium
22:00 - Cost of Net Zero 2050
28:00 - Challenging Assumptions
34:00 - How Much Should We Care?
37:00 - Independence of Central Banks
40:30 - Stability & Collapse
46:00 - Costs of Inaction
50:44 - Credible Carbon Price
57:00 - Industry & Competition
01:02:00 - Avoiding Lose Lose Lose
01:05:10 - Outro
