Uploaded September 2025 | Updated September 2026, 3 weeks ago
What happens when cheap solar flips the script on climate sceptics? Can pumped hydro really deliver the long-duration storage we need? And is “hope” a dangerous comforter in the race to net zero?
In this season opener of Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with Malcolm Turnbull — former Prime Minister of Australia, lawyer, statesman, energy investor, and climate champion. From leading Australia through fierce political battles over climate policy to now spearheading renewable projects through Turnbull Renewables, he offers a rare insider’s perspective on the global clean energy transition.
Turnbull and Liebreich explore the clash between optimism and realism in climate action: why cheap solar is reshaping politics, the promise and pitfalls of green hydrogen, and whether pumped hydro could be the long-duration storage solution the world needs. Along the way, they reflect on U.S. politics under Trump, trade negotiations without American leadership, and why “hope is not a strategy” when it comes to energy security.
Correction: The graph we showed at 30:11 had some rendering issues that caused it to appear incorrectly in this video. Alas, we can’t change it in the YouTube video, so to see the correct version, please visit: cleaninguppod.substack.com/p/the-race-to-build-more-storage
Leadership Circle:
Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.
Links and more:
• Snowy 2.0: https://www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/about/
• International Hydropower Association: hydropower.org
• Green Trade or Green Trade-Off - Ep52: Tony Abbott
• How Big Things (Should) Get Done - Ep128: Prof. Bent Flyvbjerg
• Is The Tide Turning On Hydrogen? Ep210: Andrew Forrest
• Ya Basta: liebreich.com/214-2
• The Spycatcher Trial: theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/sep/14/malcolm-turnbull-spycatcher-lawyer-prime-minister
Chapters:
00:00 - Coming Up
02:15 - Who is Malcolm Turnbull?
04:45 - Spycatcher Trial
06:18 - Geopolitical Outlook
09:30 - Europe Needs to Step Up
13:00 - What Trump Gets Wrong
17:10 - Is COP Dead?
20:00 - Hydrogen & Andrew Forrest
26:06 - Australian Blackouts & Snowy 2.0
29:00 - Cost Overruns
33:00 - Who Will Pay For Storage?
37:00 - Solving It Cheaply
41:30 - Pumped Hydro Storage
46:50 - How Much Hydro
48:15 - Malcolm Tells off Michael
53:00 - Environmental Impact of Pumped Storage
58:30 - Why Big Projects Go Over Budget
01:01:00 - The Energy Revolution
01:04:30 - We Need To Get Started
01:10:00 - Outro
What happens when cheap solar flips the script on climate sceptics? Can pumped hydro really deliver the long-duration storage we need? And is “hope” a dangerous comforter in the race to net zero?
In this season opener of Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with Malcolm Turnbull — former Prime Minister of Australia, lawyer, statesman, energy investor, and climate champion. From leading Australia through fierce political battles over climate policy to now spearheading renewable projects through Turnbull Renewables, he offers a rare insider’s perspective on the global clean energy transition.
Turnbull and Liebreich explore the clash between optimism and realism in climate action: why cheap solar is reshaping politics, the promise and pitfalls of green hydrogen, and whether pumped hydro could be the long-duration storage solution the world needs. Along the way, they reflect on U.S. politics under Trump, trade negotiations without American leadership, and why “hope is not a strategy” when it comes to energy security.
Correction: The graph we showed at 30:11 had some rendering issues that caused it to appear incorrectly in this video. Alas, we can’t change it in the YouTube video, so to see the correct version, please visit: cleaninguppod.substack.com/p/the-race-to-build-more-storage
Leadership Circle:
Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.
Links and more:
• Snowy 2.0: https://www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/about/
• International Hydropower Association: hydropower.org
• Green Trade or Green Trade-Off - Ep52: Tony Abbott
• How Big Things (Should) Get Done - Ep128: Prof. Bent Flyvbjerg
• Is The Tide Turning On Hydrogen? Ep210: Andrew Forrest
• Ya Basta: liebreich.com/214-2
• The Spycatcher Trial: theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/sep/14/malcolm-turnbull-spycatcher-lawyer-prime-minister
Chapters:
00:00 - Coming Up
02:15 - Who is Malcolm Turnbull?
04:45 - Spycatcher Trial
06:18 - Geopolitical Outlook
09:30 - Europe Needs to Step Up
13:00 - What Trump Gets Wrong
17:10 - Is COP Dead?
20:00 - Hydrogen & Andrew Forrest
26:06 - Australian Blackouts & Snowy 2.0
29:00 - Cost Overruns
33:00 - Who Will Pay For Storage?
37:00 - Solving It Cheaply
41:30 - Pumped Hydro Storage
46:50 - How Much Hydro
48:15 - Malcolm Tells off Michael
53:00 - Environmental Impact of Pumped Storage
58:30 - Why Big Projects Go Over Budget
01:01:00 - The Energy Revolution
01:04:30 - We Need To Get Started
01:10:00 - Outro
