The Meaning Code | Michael Levin and John Vervaeke in Dialogos: Towards an Ontology of Causal Structures @TheMeaningCode | Uploaded June 2022 | Updated October 2024, 2 hours ago.
Dr. Michael Levin and Dr. John Vervaeke discuss findings on cognition, consciousness and placebo. Where is the line?
Links follow timestamps.
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
02:30 John begins with the question, “How do you define and differentiate cognition, intelligence, consciousness”
05:40 Mike tackles the same question
08:10 Can there be relevance realization at the cellular level?
14:00 Mike’s life turned upside down by the realization of the gradual development from oocyte to adult mind. Amazing plasticity. William James’ definition of intelligence
19:45 John asks about top-down causation and rejecting just a bottom up approach. The whole has a causal power not attributable just to the parts.
21:00 JV Identity going all the way down and emergence going all the way up. How to identify the ontology?
22:00 ML Let’s assume LaPlace’s demon could exist as a thought experiment. Tracking the micro states is an observer only, it cannot act. All the states are the same to you. But we want a worldview that helps you do things. A participatory worldview.
KW: is he saying that one cannot act without a substructure of value?
25:45 JV: I’ve been making epistemological arguments around the idea that any proper worldview has to give ontological status to scientists making measurements.
27:00 JV introduces neoplatonism, emanation down and emergence up as a way to integrate science and spirituality in an intellectually rigorous way
28:50 ML: I’ve been thinking hard about this Platonic worldview but not when in the biology circles, only in a forum like this, focused on meaning.
30:00 Logic gates come with a truth table. Where does that come from?
30:55 An index into the world of possibilities. Where does the capacity come from for xenobots to form within 48 hours?
33:00 Evidence for fractal levels of cognition, information exchange…
But have you ever looked at the placebo effect, which for a pure reductionist is a very hard thing to explain?
35:30 ML’s study on gene regulatory networks and the placebo effect.
38:30 Albert Mason on psycho dermatology (links below)
41:45 KW asks a “woo woo” question. Hilarity ensues.
45:00 JV The importance of rigorous scientific research to verify “experience”
49:30 ML Biochemical and bioelectrical signals and how they could eventuate change across layers
52:00 ML Can we train molecular networks to stimulate healing?
Useful links for further study:
Here’s the prep conversation I did with Glen, the physicist:
Worlds in Collision: Intelligence through the Lens of Wolfgang Smith, Michael Levin, Stephen Wolfram
youtu.be/3hmeamwZq9c
Background material
The full series of Awakening from The Meaning Crisis:
youtube.com/playlist?list=PLND1JCRq8Vuh3f0P5qjrSdb5eC1ZfZwWJ
John Vervaeke's 4 P's of Knowing
youtube.com/playlist?list=PLND1JCRq8Vuit-ucfcXN8QDPMc6DXbTHq
Michael Levin: youtu.be/GVOxAOflRho
Dr. Levin's work on limb regeneration: youtu.be/N9Oli5MPLbY
The Levin Lab at Tufts U: https://ase.tufts.edu/biology/labs/levin/research/newdirections.htm
Erik Hoel: a great Substack column in addition to his science. See section "b)" on erikphoel.com/science.html
Albert Mason:
www7.bbk.ac.uk/hiddenpersuaders/blog/albert-mason-medicine-magic-hypnotism
npsi.us.com/uploads/documents/MasonInterviewMRobinson2011.pdf
The book on causation mentioned by John: The Vertical Ascent by Wolfgang Smith
A talk with Wolfgang Smith: Dr. Wolfgang Smith, Renowned Physicist, on Vertical Causation, Irreducible Wholeness and Meaning
youtu.be/8NWHGX53agc
Karen's websites:
karenwongart.com
TheMeaningCode.com
Dr. Michael Levin and Dr. John Vervaeke discuss findings on cognition, consciousness and placebo. Where is the line?
Links follow timestamps.
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
02:30 John begins with the question, “How do you define and differentiate cognition, intelligence, consciousness”
05:40 Mike tackles the same question
08:10 Can there be relevance realization at the cellular level?
14:00 Mike’s life turned upside down by the realization of the gradual development from oocyte to adult mind. Amazing plasticity. William James’ definition of intelligence
19:45 John asks about top-down causation and rejecting just a bottom up approach. The whole has a causal power not attributable just to the parts.
21:00 JV Identity going all the way down and emergence going all the way up. How to identify the ontology?
22:00 ML Let’s assume LaPlace’s demon could exist as a thought experiment. Tracking the micro states is an observer only, it cannot act. All the states are the same to you. But we want a worldview that helps you do things. A participatory worldview.
KW: is he saying that one cannot act without a substructure of value?
25:45 JV: I’ve been making epistemological arguments around the idea that any proper worldview has to give ontological status to scientists making measurements.
27:00 JV introduces neoplatonism, emanation down and emergence up as a way to integrate science and spirituality in an intellectually rigorous way
28:50 ML: I’ve been thinking hard about this Platonic worldview but not when in the biology circles, only in a forum like this, focused on meaning.
30:00 Logic gates come with a truth table. Where does that come from?
30:55 An index into the world of possibilities. Where does the capacity come from for xenobots to form within 48 hours?
33:00 Evidence for fractal levels of cognition, information exchange…
But have you ever looked at the placebo effect, which for a pure reductionist is a very hard thing to explain?
35:30 ML’s study on gene regulatory networks and the placebo effect.
38:30 Albert Mason on psycho dermatology (links below)
41:45 KW asks a “woo woo” question. Hilarity ensues.
45:00 JV The importance of rigorous scientific research to verify “experience”
49:30 ML Biochemical and bioelectrical signals and how they could eventuate change across layers
52:00 ML Can we train molecular networks to stimulate healing?
Useful links for further study:
Here’s the prep conversation I did with Glen, the physicist:
Worlds in Collision: Intelligence through the Lens of Wolfgang Smith, Michael Levin, Stephen Wolfram
youtu.be/3hmeamwZq9c
Background material
The full series of Awakening from The Meaning Crisis:
youtube.com/playlist?list=PLND1JCRq8Vuh3f0P5qjrSdb5eC1ZfZwWJ
John Vervaeke's 4 P's of Knowing
youtube.com/playlist?list=PLND1JCRq8Vuit-ucfcXN8QDPMc6DXbTHq
Michael Levin: youtu.be/GVOxAOflRho
Dr. Levin's work on limb regeneration: youtu.be/N9Oli5MPLbY
The Levin Lab at Tufts U: https://ase.tufts.edu/biology/labs/levin/research/newdirections.htm
Erik Hoel: a great Substack column in addition to his science. See section "b)" on erikphoel.com/science.html
Albert Mason:
www7.bbk.ac.uk/hiddenpersuaders/blog/albert-mason-medicine-magic-hypnotism
npsi.us.com/uploads/documents/MasonInterviewMRobinson2011.pdf
The book on causation mentioned by John: The Vertical Ascent by Wolfgang Smith
A talk with Wolfgang Smith: Dr. Wolfgang Smith, Renowned Physicist, on Vertical Causation, Irreducible Wholeness and Meaning
youtu.be/8NWHGX53agc
Karen's websites:
karenwongart.com
TheMeaningCode.com
