Uploaded October 2023 | Updated September 2026, 2 weeks ago
Dr. John Vervaeke engages in a multi-faceted conversation with Dr. Carla Groom, who is ingeniously incorporating cognitive science into her work. Vervaeke provides a scholarly background on mental models, drawing from philosophy and cognitive science to elucidate how humans make sense of their world. Groom shares her front-line experiences, revealing how these theories translate into actionable insights in government. The discussion evolves into a kaleidoscope of ideas, from the dynamics of mental models in decision-making to the nuanced philosophy of 'we agency' and collective intelligence. The conversation not only dissects the complexities of problem-solving in the public sector but also expands to the cosmos as they explore how NASA scientists navigate rovers on Mars. Focusing on the intricate balance between human cognition and the demands of large organizational structures, this episode is an intellectual treasure trove for anyone fascinated by the crossroads of cognitive science, governance, and human behavior.
Dr. Carla Groom is a pioneering force in the realm of behavioral science, currently steering the field of Human-Centred Design Science at the UK's Department of Work and Pensions. With a doctorate in social psychology from Northwestern University, she identified fundamental flaws in traditional empirical research methods, leading her to become a luminary in policy and organizational decision-making. Dr. Groom's unique practice focuses on debunking false assumptions in policy design by digging deep into contextual human behavior. Not only is she a sought-after conference speaker and academic peer reviewer, but she also thrives on educating others in her transformative methods. Her multidisciplinary team of experts continually enriches her own understanding, making her a perpetual student in a field in which she has substantially evolved.
Resources:
Dr. Carla Groom: LinkedIn | X
John Vervaeke: Website | Patreon | Facebook | X | YouTube
The Vervaeke Foundation
Circling & Dialogos - workshop
John Vervaeke — YouTube:
Bridging Behavioral Science & Government Policies for a Meaningful Work Experience
AI: The Coming Thresholds and The Path We Must Take | Internationally Acclaimed Cognitive Scientist
The Future of Governance:
The Future of Governance Part 1 | Jordan Hall and John Vervaeke
The Future of Governance Part 2 | Jordan Hall and John Vervaeke
The Future of Governance Part 3 | Jordan Hall and John Vervaeke
Climbing Mt. Sophia
Compassion: A Dialectic into Dialogos with John Vervaeke, Christopher Mastropietro and Ryan Barton
Books
Mental Models - Philip Johnson-Laird
Dynamics in Action: Intentional Behavior as a Complex System - Alicia Juarrero
Context Changes Everything: How Constraints Create Coherence - Alicia Juarrero
The Blunders of Our Governments - Anthony King, Ivor Crewe
Mentoring the Machines: Orientation - Part One: Surviving the Deep Impact of the Artificially Intelligent Tomorrow - John Vervaeke, Shawn Coyne
Mentoring the Machines: Origins - Part 2: Surviving the Deep Impact of the Artificially Intelligent Tomorrow - John Vervaeke, Shawn Coyne
Publications
Predictive processing and relevance realization: exploring convergent solutions to the frame problem - Brett P. Andersen, Mark Miller & John Vervaeke
Distributed Cognition and the Experience of Presence in the Mars Exploration Rover Mission - Dan Chiappe, John Vervaeke
The Enactment of Shared Agency in Teams Exploring Mars Through Rovers - Dan Chiappe, John Vervaeke
The Experience of Presence in the Mars Exploration Rover Mission - Dan Chiappe, John Vervaeke
Cognition in the Wild - Edwin Hutchins
Miscellaneous
UTOK Conference 2023 | Full Video Library
Mundus Imaginalis or the Imaginary and the Imaginal - Henry Corbin
Wolfgang Smith & John Vervaeke at The Meaning Code
People
Brett Andersen
Mark Miller
Geoffrey Hinton
Cory Lewis
Timecodes
00:00:00 - Introduction of Dr. Carla Groom and her work on cognitive science integration.
00:01:20 - Challenges of understanding assumptions and mental models in problem-solving.
00:07:33 - Exploring Philip Johnson-Laird's concept of mental models.
00:15:00 - Simulating changes in the UK government's hierarchical system.
00:19:20 - Models as emissaries for worldviews.
00:24:31 - Discussion on causality in understanding and solving issues.
00:30:09 - Hidden factors influencing paths to success.
00:33:20 - Anecdote about NASA scientists and rovers.
00:39:07 - Importance of understanding a minister's worldview.
00:44:30 - Need for new mental models in systemic thinking.
00:47:28 - Agreement on evolving worldviews.
00:50:38 - Challenge of translating specialist language.
00:55:40 - Examining the tension between domain specificity and professional specialization.
00:58:20 - Explanation of oscillating between specialized processing and collective reasoning.
01:03:40 - Appreciating complexity in government problems.
Dr. John Vervaeke engages in a multi-faceted conversation with Dr. Carla Groom, who is ingeniously incorporating cognitive science into her work. Vervaeke provides a scholarly background on mental models, drawing from philosophy and cognitive science to elucidate how humans make sense of their world. Groom shares her front-line experiences, revealing how these theories translate into actionable insights in government. The discussion evolves into a kaleidoscope of ideas, from the dynamics of mental models in decision-making to the nuanced philosophy of 'we agency' and collective intelligence. The conversation not only dissects the complexities of problem-solving in the public sector but also expands to the cosmos as they explore how NASA scientists navigate rovers on Mars. Focusing on the intricate balance between human cognition and the demands of large organizational structures, this episode is an intellectual treasure trove for anyone fascinated by the crossroads of cognitive science, governance, and human behavior.
Dr. Carla Groom is a pioneering force in the realm of behavioral science, currently steering the field of Human-Centred Design Science at the UK's Department of Work and Pensions. With a doctorate in social psychology from Northwestern University, she identified fundamental flaws in traditional empirical research methods, leading her to become a luminary in policy and organizational decision-making. Dr. Groom's unique practice focuses on debunking false assumptions in policy design by digging deep into contextual human behavior. Not only is she a sought-after conference speaker and academic peer reviewer, but she also thrives on educating others in her transformative methods. Her multidisciplinary team of experts continually enriches her own understanding, making her a perpetual student in a field in which she has substantially evolved.
Resources:
Dr. Carla Groom: LinkedIn | X
John Vervaeke: Website | Patreon | Facebook | X | YouTube
The Vervaeke Foundation
Circling & Dialogos - workshop
John Vervaeke — YouTube:
Bridging Behavioral Science & Government Policies for a Meaningful Work Experience
AI: The Coming Thresholds and The Path We Must Take | Internationally Acclaimed Cognitive Scientist
The Future of Governance:
The Future of Governance Part 1 | Jordan Hall and John Vervaeke
The Future of Governance Part 2 | Jordan Hall and John Vervaeke
The Future of Governance Part 3 | Jordan Hall and John Vervaeke
Climbing Mt. Sophia
Compassion: A Dialectic into Dialogos with John Vervaeke, Christopher Mastropietro and Ryan Barton
Books
Mental Models - Philip Johnson-Laird
Dynamics in Action: Intentional Behavior as a Complex System - Alicia Juarrero
Context Changes Everything: How Constraints Create Coherence - Alicia Juarrero
The Blunders of Our Governments - Anthony King, Ivor Crewe
Mentoring the Machines: Orientation - Part One: Surviving the Deep Impact of the Artificially Intelligent Tomorrow - John Vervaeke, Shawn Coyne
Mentoring the Machines: Origins - Part 2: Surviving the Deep Impact of the Artificially Intelligent Tomorrow - John Vervaeke, Shawn Coyne
Publications
Predictive processing and relevance realization: exploring convergent solutions to the frame problem - Brett P. Andersen, Mark Miller & John Vervaeke
Distributed Cognition and the Experience of Presence in the Mars Exploration Rover Mission - Dan Chiappe, John Vervaeke
The Enactment of Shared Agency in Teams Exploring Mars Through Rovers - Dan Chiappe, John Vervaeke
The Experience of Presence in the Mars Exploration Rover Mission - Dan Chiappe, John Vervaeke
Cognition in the Wild - Edwin Hutchins
Miscellaneous
UTOK Conference 2023 | Full Video Library
Mundus Imaginalis or the Imaginary and the Imaginal - Henry Corbin
Wolfgang Smith & John Vervaeke at The Meaning Code
People
Brett Andersen
Mark Miller
Geoffrey Hinton
Cory Lewis
Timecodes
00:00:00 - Introduction of Dr. Carla Groom and her work on cognitive science integration.
00:01:20 - Challenges of understanding assumptions and mental models in problem-solving.
00:07:33 - Exploring Philip Johnson-Laird's concept of mental models.
00:15:00 - Simulating changes in the UK government's hierarchical system.
00:19:20 - Models as emissaries for worldviews.
00:24:31 - Discussion on causality in understanding and solving issues.
00:30:09 - Hidden factors influencing paths to success.
00:33:20 - Anecdote about NASA scientists and rovers.
00:39:07 - Importance of understanding a minister's worldview.
00:44:30 - Need for new mental models in systemic thinking.
00:47:28 - Agreement on evolving worldviews.
00:50:38 - Challenge of translating specialist language.
00:55:40 - Examining the tension between domain specificity and professional specialization.
00:58:20 - Explanation of oscillating between specialized processing and collective reasoning.
01:03:40 - Appreciating complexity in government problems.
