Uploaded November 2023 | Updated September 2026, 2 weeks ago
Dr. John Vervaeke is joined by multi-talented Ben Holden for a dialogue that delves deep into the esoteric yet compelling domains of naming magic, perception, and the cosmos. From the intriguing nature of ancient myths and folklore to the complexities of modern fantasy literature, the conversation covers a broad spectrum. It explores the tension between the "moreness" and "suchness" of objects, the Buddhist notion of unique essence, and the mysterious realms of naming and representation. The duo also ventures into the practical world, contemplating the psychological underpinnings of our contemporary struggles with meaning, vision, and anxiety. All of this is punctuated by Holden's colorful anecdotes from his work and an earnest exploration of the implications of a sentient cosmos. Don't miss this intellectual feast that promises to stretch your mind and tug at your curiosity.
Resources:
John Vervaeke
Website: johnvervaeke.com
Patreon: patreon.com/johnvervaeke
Facebook: facebook.com/VervaekeJohn
X: twitter.com/vervaeke_john
YouTube: youtube.com/@johnvervaeke
Ben Holden
Website: benpholden.com
Patreon: patreon.com/benpatrickholden
Facebook: facebook.com/BenPatrickHolden
Instagram: instagram.com/fantasycreatesreality
YouTube: youtube.com/channel/UC-kuMK0hUhq-8Y-U_bs7s-A
The Vervaeke Foundation: vervaekefoundation.org
Related YouTube Episodes
Speculative fiction, post-tragic romanticism and awakening from the meaning crisis w/ Ben Holden - Voice with Vervaeke: youtu.be/Z9u2Yqc8O5k?si=B32OQoOAAyTl8BKK
John Vervaeke - Tradition as a Living Force - Fantasy Creates Reality: youtu.be/TvuAn-lYYtc?si=XzYr_A8IFiu8unpJ
Books
Tokyo Yokai - Ben Holden: amazon.com/Audible-Tokyo-Yokai/dp/B0BJL9G5GC/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1PFW4D1CL7IPB&keywords=Tokyo+Yokai&qid=1697577045&s=books&sprefix=tokyo+yokai%2Cstripbooks%2C119&sr=1-1
Tales from Earthsea - Ursula K. Le Guin: amazon.com/Tales-from-Earthsea-audiobook/dp/B01KOTNKL2/ref=sr_1_1?crid=34MVMT9CKWPTG&keywords=ursula+le+guin+tales+of+earthsea&qid=1697577201&s=audible&sprefix=ursula+le+guin+tales+of+earth+sea%2Caudible%2C102&sr=1-1
The God of the Left Hemisphere: Blake, Bolte Taylor and the Myth of Creation - Roderick Tweedy: amazon.com/God-Left-Hemisphere-Taylor-Creation/dp/1780491018
Time Codes
00:00:00 — Dr. John Vervaeke welcomes Ben Holden for their third conversation on the show.
00:00:28 — Ben Holden discusses the balance between audience engagement and addiction.
00:01:29 — Holden introduces his voice-acted short story "Tokyo Yokai."
00:03:13 — Holden suggests exploring ideas for his longer piece of work.
00:06:06 — Explanation of the concept of naming magic.
00:08:19 — Vervaeke delves into the Buddhist notion of 'suchness.'
00:11:00 — A shift in the conversation toward the importance of naming.
00:17:49 — Ben discusses conflicting ideologies in magic.
00:20:20 — Aristotle's notion of form and matter is introduced.
00:24:51 — Holden introduces meteor shower-linked technology.
00:28:20 — Exploration of a dynamic, living cosmos.
00:31:10 — Vervaeke's take on enriching the fantasy genre with new visions
00:33:20 — Upanishads' perspective on sight is discussed.
00:37:48 — The conversation turns to disruptions in our perceived notions of order.
00:42:32 — Holden talks about living a soulful life in a capitalist world.
00:47:45 — The concept of 'bleeding into each other' is introduced.
00:51:00 — The role of conflict in storytelling is discussed.
00:56:07 — Holden queries Vervaeke on the idea of a sentient cosmos.
00:58:00 — Vervaeke speaks on Neoplatonic magicians during the scientific revolution.
Dr. John Vervaeke is joined by multi-talented Ben Holden for a dialogue that delves deep into the esoteric yet compelling domains of naming magic, perception, and the cosmos. From the intriguing nature of ancient myths and folklore to the complexities of modern fantasy literature, the conversation covers a broad spectrum. It explores the tension between the "moreness" and "suchness" of objects, the Buddhist notion of unique essence, and the mysterious realms of naming and representation. The duo also ventures into the practical world, contemplating the psychological underpinnings of our contemporary struggles with meaning, vision, and anxiety. All of this is punctuated by Holden's colorful anecdotes from his work and an earnest exploration of the implications of a sentient cosmos. Don't miss this intellectual feast that promises to stretch your mind and tug at your curiosity.
Resources:
John Vervaeke
Website: johnvervaeke.com
Patreon: patreon.com/johnvervaeke
Facebook: facebook.com/VervaekeJohn
X: twitter.com/vervaeke_john
YouTube: youtube.com/@johnvervaeke
Ben Holden
Website: benpholden.com
Patreon: patreon.com/benpatrickholden
Facebook: facebook.com/BenPatrickHolden
Instagram: instagram.com/fantasycreatesreality
YouTube: youtube.com/channel/UC-kuMK0hUhq-8Y-U_bs7s-A
The Vervaeke Foundation: vervaekefoundation.org
Related YouTube Episodes
Speculative fiction, post-tragic romanticism and awakening from the meaning crisis w/ Ben Holden - Voice with Vervaeke: youtu.be/Z9u2Yqc8O5k?si=B32OQoOAAyTl8BKK
John Vervaeke - Tradition as a Living Force - Fantasy Creates Reality: youtu.be/TvuAn-lYYtc?si=XzYr_A8IFiu8unpJ
Books
Tokyo Yokai - Ben Holden: amazon.com/Audible-Tokyo-Yokai/dp/B0BJL9G5GC/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1PFW4D1CL7IPB&keywords=Tokyo+Yokai&qid=1697577045&s=books&sprefix=tokyo+yokai%2Cstripbooks%2C119&sr=1-1
Tales from Earthsea - Ursula K. Le Guin: amazon.com/Tales-from-Earthsea-audiobook/dp/B01KOTNKL2/ref=sr_1_1?crid=34MVMT9CKWPTG&keywords=ursula+le+guin+tales+of+earthsea&qid=1697577201&s=audible&sprefix=ursula+le+guin+tales+of+earth+sea%2Caudible%2C102&sr=1-1
The God of the Left Hemisphere: Blake, Bolte Taylor and the Myth of Creation - Roderick Tweedy: amazon.com/God-Left-Hemisphere-Taylor-Creation/dp/1780491018
Time Codes
00:00:00 — Dr. John Vervaeke welcomes Ben Holden for their third conversation on the show.
00:00:28 — Ben Holden discusses the balance between audience engagement and addiction.
00:01:29 — Holden introduces his voice-acted short story "Tokyo Yokai."
00:03:13 — Holden suggests exploring ideas for his longer piece of work.
00:06:06 — Explanation of the concept of naming magic.
00:08:19 — Vervaeke delves into the Buddhist notion of 'suchness.'
00:11:00 — A shift in the conversation toward the importance of naming.
00:17:49 — Ben discusses conflicting ideologies in magic.
00:20:20 — Aristotle's notion of form and matter is introduced.
00:24:51 — Holden introduces meteor shower-linked technology.
00:28:20 — Exploration of a dynamic, living cosmos.
00:31:10 — Vervaeke's take on enriching the fantasy genre with new visions
00:33:20 — Upanishads' perspective on sight is discussed.
00:37:48 — The conversation turns to disruptions in our perceived notions of order.
00:42:32 — Holden talks about living a soulful life in a capitalist world.
00:47:45 — The concept of 'bleeding into each other' is introduced.
00:51:00 — The role of conflict in storytelling is discussed.
00:56:07 — Holden queries Vervaeke on the idea of a sentient cosmos.
00:58:00 — Vervaeke speaks on Neoplatonic magicians during the scientific revolution.
