Uploaded August 2026 | Updated September 2026, 2 weeks ago
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- Nobody likes a call center — ElevenAgents by ElevenLabs fixes that with voice AI that sounds human and works 24/7 in 30+ languages. Try it: elevenlabs.io/TOE
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This podcast explores the uncanny link between two of the twentieth century's great visionary works. Becca Tarnas, assistant professor at the California Institute of Integral Studies, joins to discuss her doctoral research into the parallels between Carl Jung's Red Book and J.R.R. Tolkien's lesser-known visionary writings. The central claim: working independently, both men produced strikingly similar imagery, timing, and figures — Jung's Philemon and Tolkien's Gandalf, the Eye of the Evil One and the Eye of Sauron — while each insisted their material felt discovered rather than invented. From there the conversation moves through active imagination, the reality of archetypes, psyche versus mind, and the line between mystical insight and psychosis — a wide-ranging look at where imagination ends and reality begins.
FOLLOW:
- Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e
- Substack: curtjaimungal.substack.com/subscribe
- Twitter: twitter.com/TOEwithCurt
- Discord Invite: discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs
- Crypto: nowpayments.io/donation/TOE
- PayPal: paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=XUBHNMFXUX5S4
TIMESTAMPS:
- 00:00:00 - Jung and Tolkien's Red Books
- 00:05:42 - Archetypal Rhymes and Parallels
- 00:11:26 - Defining the Imaginal Realm
- 00:16:38 - Active Imagination vs. Dreaming
- 00:22:00 - Active Imagination Protocol
- 00:27:00 - Psyche’s Spontaneous Expression
- 00:33:57 - Ontology of Imaginal Figures
- 00:39:03 - Psychologizing vs. Mythologizing
- 00:45:57 - Planetary Archetypes Experience
- 00:51:34 - Perceiving Universal Beauty
- 00:58:23 - Universal vs. Objective Reality
- 01:04:00 - Psychosis vs. Gnosis
- 01:09:00 - Grounding the Visionary
- 01:15:00 - Symbolic Language of Madness
- 01:21:00 - Unearned Wisdom and Psychedelics
- 01:26:30 - Motherhood as Expanded State
- 01:33:57 - Meaning in Disconnection
- 01:40:56 - Intuition in Science
- 01:46:55 - Leonardo’s Light and Shade
LINKS MENTIONED:
- Journey To The Imaginal Realm [Book]: amazon.com/dp/1947544217?tag=toe08-20
- Participatory Imagination [Lecture]: beccatarnas.com/2020/08/28/jungs-participatory-imagination
- Becca's PhD Defense: youtu.be/3soOYajHUBM
- The Red Book [Book]: amazon.com/dp/0393089088?tag=toe08-20
- The Holy Grail Of The Unconscious [Article]: nytimes.com/2009/09/20/magazine/20jung-t.html
- Active Imagination: jungiancenter.org/jung-on-active-imagination-features-methods-and-warnings
- Jung On Active Imagination [Book]: amazon.com/dp/0691015767?tag=toe08-20
- Richard Tarnas's Website: cosmosandpsyche.com
- The Passion Of The Western Mind [Book]: amazon.com/dp/0345368096?tag=toe08-20
- Psychological Types [Book]: amazon.com/dp/1614279705?tag=toe08-20
- The Fellowship Of The Ring [Book]: amazon.com/dp/0547928211?tag=toe08-20
- Kant's 'Categories': https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant/
- The Imaginary And The Imaginal [Paper]: bahaistudies.net/asma/mundus_imaginalis.pdf
- Toni Wolff: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toni_Wolff
- The Call Of Cthulhu [Book]: hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/cc.aspx
- The Shadow: iaap.org/jung-analytical-psychology/short-articles-on-analytical-psychology/the-shadow
- BBC Interviews Curt: bbc.com/audio/play/m002s4hd
- Andres Emilsson [TOE]: youtu.be/gi08eVU_-f8
- Leo Gura [TOE]: youtu.be/R-w8k4smC74
- Iain McGilchrist [TOE]: youtu.be/Q9sBKCd2HD0
- Greg Kondrak [TOE]: youtu.be/FFW14zSYiFY
- John Vervaeke [TOE]: youtu.be/3p8o3-7mvQc
- Bernardo Kastrup & Susan Blackmore [TOE]: youtu.be/jrVnAWP2XEs
- Consciousness Iceberg [TOE]: youtu.be/65yjqIDghEk
Guests do not pay to appear. #science
SPONSORS:
- Nobody likes a call center — ElevenAgents by ElevenLabs fixes that with voice AI that sounds human and works 24/7 in 30+ languages. Try it: elevenlabs.io/TOE
- I personally subscribe to The Economist. TOE listeners get 35% off the annual subscription. No other podcast has this! economist.com/TOE
This podcast explores the uncanny link between two of the twentieth century's great visionary works. Becca Tarnas, assistant professor at the California Institute of Integral Studies, joins to discuss her doctoral research into the parallels between Carl Jung's Red Book and J.R.R. Tolkien's lesser-known visionary writings. The central claim: working independently, both men produced strikingly similar imagery, timing, and figures — Jung's Philemon and Tolkien's Gandalf, the Eye of the Evil One and the Eye of Sauron — while each insisted their material felt discovered rather than invented. From there the conversation moves through active imagination, the reality of archetypes, psyche versus mind, and the line between mystical insight and psychosis — a wide-ranging look at where imagination ends and reality begins.
FOLLOW:
- Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e
- Substack: curtjaimungal.substack.com/subscribe
- Twitter: twitter.com/TOEwithCurt
- Discord Invite: discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs
- Crypto: nowpayments.io/donation/TOE
- PayPal: paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=XUBHNMFXUX5S4
TIMESTAMPS:
- 00:00:00 - Jung and Tolkien's Red Books
- 00:05:42 - Archetypal Rhymes and Parallels
- 00:11:26 - Defining the Imaginal Realm
- 00:16:38 - Active Imagination vs. Dreaming
- 00:22:00 - Active Imagination Protocol
- 00:27:00 - Psyche’s Spontaneous Expression
- 00:33:57 - Ontology of Imaginal Figures
- 00:39:03 - Psychologizing vs. Mythologizing
- 00:45:57 - Planetary Archetypes Experience
- 00:51:34 - Perceiving Universal Beauty
- 00:58:23 - Universal vs. Objective Reality
- 01:04:00 - Psychosis vs. Gnosis
- 01:09:00 - Grounding the Visionary
- 01:15:00 - Symbolic Language of Madness
- 01:21:00 - Unearned Wisdom and Psychedelics
- 01:26:30 - Motherhood as Expanded State
- 01:33:57 - Meaning in Disconnection
- 01:40:56 - Intuition in Science
- 01:46:55 - Leonardo’s Light and Shade
LINKS MENTIONED:
- Journey To The Imaginal Realm [Book]: amazon.com/dp/1947544217?tag=toe08-20
- Participatory Imagination [Lecture]: beccatarnas.com/2020/08/28/jungs-participatory-imagination
- Becca's PhD Defense: youtu.be/3soOYajHUBM
- The Red Book [Book]: amazon.com/dp/0393089088?tag=toe08-20
- The Holy Grail Of The Unconscious [Article]: nytimes.com/2009/09/20/magazine/20jung-t.html
- Active Imagination: jungiancenter.org/jung-on-active-imagination-features-methods-and-warnings
- Jung On Active Imagination [Book]: amazon.com/dp/0691015767?tag=toe08-20
- Richard Tarnas's Website: cosmosandpsyche.com
- The Passion Of The Western Mind [Book]: amazon.com/dp/0345368096?tag=toe08-20
- Psychological Types [Book]: amazon.com/dp/1614279705?tag=toe08-20
- The Fellowship Of The Ring [Book]: amazon.com/dp/0547928211?tag=toe08-20
- Kant's 'Categories': https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant/
- The Imaginary And The Imaginal [Paper]: bahaistudies.net/asma/mundus_imaginalis.pdf
- Toni Wolff: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toni_Wolff
- The Call Of Cthulhu [Book]: hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/cc.aspx
- The Shadow: iaap.org/jung-analytical-psychology/short-articles-on-analytical-psychology/the-shadow
- BBC Interviews Curt: bbc.com/audio/play/m002s4hd
- Andres Emilsson [TOE]: youtu.be/gi08eVU_-f8
- Leo Gura [TOE]: youtu.be/R-w8k4smC74
- Iain McGilchrist [TOE]: youtu.be/Q9sBKCd2HD0
- Greg Kondrak [TOE]: youtu.be/FFW14zSYiFY
- John Vervaeke [TOE]: youtu.be/3p8o3-7mvQc
- Bernardo Kastrup & Susan Blackmore [TOE]: youtu.be/jrVnAWP2XEs
- Consciousness Iceberg [TOE]: youtu.be/65yjqIDghEk
Guests do not pay to appear. #science
