Uploaded August 2025 | Updated September 2026, 2 weeks ago
This is a very special episode for me. COYOTE is a fast, casual card game I created with the amazing Elan Lee and the Exploding Kittens team. It has been my obsession for two years. It is available in ~8,000 locations worldwide, including Walmart, Target, Amazon, and many others. Learn more: https://coyotegame.com.
This episode is brought to you by:
Gamma AI design partner for effortless presentations, websites, social media posts, and more: https://gamma.app (Use code TIM at checkout for 30% off any plan.)
Shopify global commerce platform, providing tools to start, grow, market, and manage a retail business: shopify.com/tim (one-dollar-per-month trial period)
Wealthfront high-yield cash account: wealthfront.com/tim (Start earning 4.00% APY on your short-term cash until you’re ready to invest. And when new clients open an account today, you can get an extra fifty-dollar bonus with a deposit of five hundred dollars or more.) Terms apply. Tim Ferriss receives cash compensation from Wealthfront Brokerage, LLC for advertising and holds a non-controlling equity interest in the corporate parent of Wealthfront Brokerage. See full disclosures here: wealthfront.com/tim
Elan Lee is the co-creator and chief executive officer of Exploding Kittens, a leading gaming and entertainment company. Under his leadership, Exploding Kittens has expanded its portfolio to nearly 30 different games with more than 60 million games sold in more than 50 countries since its founding in 2015.
cc: @ExplodingKittensInc
[00:00] Start.
[00:26] Coyote: a game 47 years in the making.
[03:46] Who is Elan Lee?
[04:45] How our motivations behind game creation intersect.
[07:54] The nutshell view of pitching a game to a retailer.
[09:51] Salesmanship is a learnable skill, but Elan’s a natural.
[11:06] Why I’ve always wanted to make my own game and how development began in earnest.
[21:28] First contact with Elan and our fast-forged, fun-focused friendship.
[26:44] The Hanabi and Rock, Paper, Scissors-inspired Toronto trip breakthrough.
[34:15] Early prototyping and testing.
[40:12] The Zero Effect.
[42:18] Recommended game design rationales, resources, and reading.
[47:49] The beginner’s mind approach to writing effective game instructions.
[51:24] A simple fact: less complication = more fun.
[52:51] Cooperative vs. competitive play.
[53:26] Leveling the playing field with attack cards and sabotage mechanics.
[56:46] Tricking people into cognitively bettering themselves by gaming.
[01:03:30] Finding the sweet spot.
[01:06:11] It takes a lot of work to make a game effortlessly fun.
[01:09:12] How many games does Exploding Kittens publish per year?
[01:10:18] Exploding Kittens’ number-one seller was designed by Elan’s four-year-old daughter.
[01:14:11] Prototypes and pitching.
[01:18:16] Improving on the industry’s fundamentally flawed testing procedure.
[01:20:47] Analyzing passing/failure with play testers’ video and feedback.
[01:24:29] Risks of internal testing.
[01:27:41] Coyote’s first positive signs from the wild.
[01:30:19] Online vs. physical store sales and tweaking variables to gauge market interest.
[01:37:28] What a successful line review looks like.
[01:39:58] Line review hoops through which lesser-proven companies have to hop.
[01:44:15] Elan’s field-tested line review meeting strategies.
[01:50:16] The importance of finding proper agent representation.
[01:55:42] In modern marketing, social media (especially short-form video) is king.
[02:00:50] The best and worst ways for an aspiring designer to sell a game.
[02:09:12] Crowdfunding pros and cons, and Kickstarter alternatives.
[02:16:08] Dealing with deal terms.
[02:20:04] The Exploding Kittens attitude toward rare partnerships.
[02:21:54] The types of games that capture Elan’s attention.
[02:23:47] Common game design mistakes.
[02:25:55] How we tried to avoid these mistakes when packaging Coyote.
[02:30:00] Self-publishing vs. conventional publishing.
[02:34:42] Business considerations and risks.
[02:41:04] Parting thoughts and a tantalizing Hollywood-mansion-party offer
This is a very special episode for me. COYOTE is a fast, casual card game I created with the amazing Elan Lee and the Exploding Kittens team. It has been my obsession for two years. It is available in ~8,000 locations worldwide, including Walmart, Target, Amazon, and many others. Learn more: https://coyotegame.com.
This episode is brought to you by:
Gamma AI design partner for effortless presentations, websites, social media posts, and more: https://gamma.app (Use code TIM at checkout for 30% off any plan.)
Shopify global commerce platform, providing tools to start, grow, market, and manage a retail business: shopify.com/tim (one-dollar-per-month trial period)
Wealthfront high-yield cash account: wealthfront.com/tim (Start earning 4.00% APY on your short-term cash until you’re ready to invest. And when new clients open an account today, you can get an extra fifty-dollar bonus with a deposit of five hundred dollars or more.) Terms apply. Tim Ferriss receives cash compensation from Wealthfront Brokerage, LLC for advertising and holds a non-controlling equity interest in the corporate parent of Wealthfront Brokerage. See full disclosures here: wealthfront.com/tim
Elan Lee is the co-creator and chief executive officer of Exploding Kittens, a leading gaming and entertainment company. Under his leadership, Exploding Kittens has expanded its portfolio to nearly 30 different games with more than 60 million games sold in more than 50 countries since its founding in 2015.
cc: @ExplodingKittensInc
[00:00] Start.
[00:26] Coyote: a game 47 years in the making.
[03:46] Who is Elan Lee?
[04:45] How our motivations behind game creation intersect.
[07:54] The nutshell view of pitching a game to a retailer.
[09:51] Salesmanship is a learnable skill, but Elan’s a natural.
[11:06] Why I’ve always wanted to make my own game and how development began in earnest.
[21:28] First contact with Elan and our fast-forged, fun-focused friendship.
[26:44] The Hanabi and Rock, Paper, Scissors-inspired Toronto trip breakthrough.
[34:15] Early prototyping and testing.
[40:12] The Zero Effect.
[42:18] Recommended game design rationales, resources, and reading.
[47:49] The beginner’s mind approach to writing effective game instructions.
[51:24] A simple fact: less complication = more fun.
[52:51] Cooperative vs. competitive play.
[53:26] Leveling the playing field with attack cards and sabotage mechanics.
[56:46] Tricking people into cognitively bettering themselves by gaming.
[01:03:30] Finding the sweet spot.
[01:06:11] It takes a lot of work to make a game effortlessly fun.
[01:09:12] How many games does Exploding Kittens publish per year?
[01:10:18] Exploding Kittens’ number-one seller was designed by Elan’s four-year-old daughter.
[01:14:11] Prototypes and pitching.
[01:18:16] Improving on the industry’s fundamentally flawed testing procedure.
[01:20:47] Analyzing passing/failure with play testers’ video and feedback.
[01:24:29] Risks of internal testing.
[01:27:41] Coyote’s first positive signs from the wild.
[01:30:19] Online vs. physical store sales and tweaking variables to gauge market interest.
[01:37:28] What a successful line review looks like.
[01:39:58] Line review hoops through which lesser-proven companies have to hop.
[01:44:15] Elan’s field-tested line review meeting strategies.
[01:50:16] The importance of finding proper agent representation.
[01:55:42] In modern marketing, social media (especially short-form video) is king.
[02:00:50] The best and worst ways for an aspiring designer to sell a game.
[02:09:12] Crowdfunding pros and cons, and Kickstarter alternatives.
[02:16:08] Dealing with deal terms.
[02:20:04] The Exploding Kittens attitude toward rare partnerships.
[02:21:54] The types of games that capture Elan’s attention.
[02:23:47] Common game design mistakes.
[02:25:55] How we tried to avoid these mistakes when packaging Coyote.
[02:30:00] Self-publishing vs. conventional publishing.
[02:34:42] Business considerations and risks.
[02:41:04] Parting thoughts and a tantalizing Hollywood-mansion-party offer
