polýMATHY PLUS | The Error of Caragounis: Detailed Critique of "The Error of Erasmus" by Chrys Caragounis @polyMATHYplus | Uploaded June 2023 | Updated October 2024, 5 hours ago.
This video is a detailed critique of "The Error of Erasmus and Un-Greek Pronunciations of Greek" (1995) by Χρήστος Καραγκούνης (Chrys Caragounis). Caragounis' paper is often shared by those who affirm that the Ancient Greek pronunciation was the same or nearly the same as that of Modern Greek. This paper and its ideas usually appeal to the linguistically illiterate, among whom Caragounis is to be named, who favor Modern Greek phonology for one reason or another. Since most people don't have the linguistic knowledge to readily challenge each of Caragounis' notions head-on, this video is an attempt to shine light on the incredibly numerous of errors of logic and facts made by the author in this quite infamous work on "historical" phonology.
SOURCES
Vox Graeca, by w. Sidney Allen
amzn.to/3FsiCT6
Vox Latina, by W. Sidney Allen
amzn.to/3WdPxSY
Greek: A History of the Language and its People, by Geoffrey Horrocks
amzn.to/3FXYedR
Medieval and Early Modern Greek, by David Holton et al.
amzn.to/3zkhgqO
The Pronunciation of Greek and Latin, Edgar Howard Sturtevant
amzn.to/3W4nt45
The Phonology of Attic in the Hellenistic Period (1978), by Sven-Tage Teodorsson
The Phonemic System of the Attic Dialect 400-340 BC (1974), by Sven-Tage Teodorsson
Romanitas and the Latin Language (2003), by JN Adams
archive.org/details/j.-n.-adams-romanitas-2003
The Regional Diversification of Latin 200 BC - AD 600 (2008), by JN Adams
amzn.to/3TRGZ2w
Antonius Jannarius “A Historical Greek Grammar” (1890) play.google.com/books/reader?id=QrwUAAAAQAAJ&pg=GBS.PA56&hl=en
ARTICLES
Will Annis “The Error of Caragounis” (2008) aoidoi.org/articles/caraerror.html
Erasmus “Dē Rēctā Latīnī Graecīque Sermōnis Prōnūntiātiōne” hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost16/Erasmus/era_rect.html
Luke Amadeus Ranieri "Variants of Lucian Pronunciation" (2023) patreon.com/posts/80661461
Erasmian Pron. and its divergences: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_of_Ancient_Greek_in_teaching#Renaissance_scholarship
Archaic Greek Alphabets: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_Greek_alphabets
Isochrony: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isochrony
CITED VIDEOS
Reading the Bible in Greek with Maria, Matthew 6 Modern Greek Pronunciation: youtu.be/HRExq-zwmTM
Reading the Bible in Greek with Maria, Matthew 6 Erasmian Pronunciation: youtube.com/watch?v=PhmmlOg_Pb4
Delphic Paean by Athenaios Athenaiou: youtu.be/SgpWXDSSHE0
Accompanying sheet music: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphic_Hymns
Ioannis Stratakis’ (Podium-Arts) recording of the Apologia of Socrates: youtu.be/k3tlBO3agFU
MY VIDEOS
Ancient Greek Pronunciation: https://shorturl.at/QRSW2
IPA Vowels: youtu.be/tpR5GdKXpGc
IPA Consonants: youtu.be/olM1mm66YPw
What Classical Attic ACTUALLY sounded like 🤯 Vulgar Attic pronunciation: youtu.be/TBIZ2WRfAgY
"Vulgar" Attic vs. Classical Attic Pronunciation: youtu.be/UkXLAe2-DLY
Retracted S in Greek & Latin:
How to recite Latin meter: https://shorturl.at/jEO14
OTHER
Armenian audio samples: http://archive.phonetics.ucla.edu/Language/HYE/hye.html
Audio file 1: http://archive.phonetics.ucla.edu/Language/HYE/hye_word-list_1972_01.mp3
The corresponding Aremenian text: http://archive.phonetics.ucla.edu/Language/HYE/hye_word-list_1972_01.html
Intercapēdinēs Latīnae by Rodrigo Portela spreaker.com/show/intercapedines-latinae
Timeline of Greek Pronunciation Changes:
bit.ly/ranierigreekpronunciation
Timeline of authors of Latin, including the grammarians:
bit.ly/ranierilatingreekauthors
🦂 Latin Pronunciation & Conversation:
patreon.com/posts/53942894
📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks:
luke-ranieri.myshopify.com
🦂 Support my work on Patreon:
patreon.com/LukeRanieri
📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks:
luke-ranieri.myshopify.com
🎙 Latin & Greek audio:
lukeranieri.com/audio
#greek #attic #pronunciation
0:00:00 Intro
0:08:17 Summary of Teodorsson
0:11:53 Will Annis’ “The Error of Caragounis” (2008)
0:28:19 Erasmus’ Dialogue
0:38:48 His error on the circumflex accent
0:54:16 Cargounis’ “The Error of Erasmus and Un-Greek Pronunciations of Greek” (1995)
0:54:26 1. The Problem
1:02:17 2. The Error of Erasmus
1:08:34 The original “practical joke” explained
1:18:22 Problems with Erasmian in practice today
1:25:36 3. Historical Circumstances
1:29:18 Jannaris’ error
1:37:29 4. The “Historical” Pronunciation of Greek
2:01:55 Wrong alphabets
2:17:25 Vowel length
2:25:21 Delphic hymn
2:39:05 4.1 Criteria for determining the Pronunciation
2:55:40 4.2 Vowels & Diphthongs
3:19:10 4.3 Consonants
3:38:38 5. Accents, breathings, etc. (Prosody)
3:59:25 chain of wrongness
4:05:36 μh λh ρh explained
4:10:10 6. Corollaries
4:15:21 watch me agree with Caragounis wholeheartedly!
4:43:49 Romance Speakers & Classical Latin: Rodrigo Portela & Irene La Preziosa
This video is a detailed critique of "The Error of Erasmus and Un-Greek Pronunciations of Greek" (1995) by Χρήστος Καραγκούνης (Chrys Caragounis). Caragounis' paper is often shared by those who affirm that the Ancient Greek pronunciation was the same or nearly the same as that of Modern Greek. This paper and its ideas usually appeal to the linguistically illiterate, among whom Caragounis is to be named, who favor Modern Greek phonology for one reason or another. Since most people don't have the linguistic knowledge to readily challenge each of Caragounis' notions head-on, this video is an attempt to shine light on the incredibly numerous of errors of logic and facts made by the author in this quite infamous work on "historical" phonology.
SOURCES
Vox Graeca, by w. Sidney Allen
amzn.to/3FsiCT6
Vox Latina, by W. Sidney Allen
amzn.to/3WdPxSY
Greek: A History of the Language and its People, by Geoffrey Horrocks
amzn.to/3FXYedR
Medieval and Early Modern Greek, by David Holton et al.
amzn.to/3zkhgqO
The Pronunciation of Greek and Latin, Edgar Howard Sturtevant
amzn.to/3W4nt45
The Phonology of Attic in the Hellenistic Period (1978), by Sven-Tage Teodorsson
The Phonemic System of the Attic Dialect 400-340 BC (1974), by Sven-Tage Teodorsson
Romanitas and the Latin Language (2003), by JN Adams
archive.org/details/j.-n.-adams-romanitas-2003
The Regional Diversification of Latin 200 BC - AD 600 (2008), by JN Adams
amzn.to/3TRGZ2w
Antonius Jannarius “A Historical Greek Grammar” (1890) play.google.com/books/reader?id=QrwUAAAAQAAJ&pg=GBS.PA56&hl=en
ARTICLES
Will Annis “The Error of Caragounis” (2008) aoidoi.org/articles/caraerror.html
Erasmus “Dē Rēctā Latīnī Graecīque Sermōnis Prōnūntiātiōne” hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost16/Erasmus/era_rect.html
Luke Amadeus Ranieri "Variants of Lucian Pronunciation" (2023) patreon.com/posts/80661461
Erasmian Pron. and its divergences: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_of_Ancient_Greek_in_teaching#Renaissance_scholarship
Archaic Greek Alphabets: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_Greek_alphabets
Isochrony: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isochrony
CITED VIDEOS
Reading the Bible in Greek with Maria, Matthew 6 Modern Greek Pronunciation: youtu.be/HRExq-zwmTM
Reading the Bible in Greek with Maria, Matthew 6 Erasmian Pronunciation: youtube.com/watch?v=PhmmlOg_Pb4
Delphic Paean by Athenaios Athenaiou: youtu.be/SgpWXDSSHE0
Accompanying sheet music: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphic_Hymns
Ioannis Stratakis’ (Podium-Arts) recording of the Apologia of Socrates: youtu.be/k3tlBO3agFU
MY VIDEOS
Ancient Greek Pronunciation: https://shorturl.at/QRSW2
IPA Vowels: youtu.be/tpR5GdKXpGc
IPA Consonants: youtu.be/olM1mm66YPw
What Classical Attic ACTUALLY sounded like 🤯 Vulgar Attic pronunciation: youtu.be/TBIZ2WRfAgY
"Vulgar" Attic vs. Classical Attic Pronunciation: youtu.be/UkXLAe2-DLY
Retracted S in Greek & Latin:
How to recite Latin meter: https://shorturl.at/jEO14
OTHER
Armenian audio samples: http://archive.phonetics.ucla.edu/Language/HYE/hye.html
Audio file 1: http://archive.phonetics.ucla.edu/Language/HYE/hye_word-list_1972_01.mp3
The corresponding Aremenian text: http://archive.phonetics.ucla.edu/Language/HYE/hye_word-list_1972_01.html
Intercapēdinēs Latīnae by Rodrigo Portela spreaker.com/show/intercapedines-latinae
Timeline of Greek Pronunciation Changes:
bit.ly/ranierigreekpronunciation
Timeline of authors of Latin, including the grammarians:
bit.ly/ranierilatingreekauthors
🦂 Latin Pronunciation & Conversation:
patreon.com/posts/53942894
📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks:
luke-ranieri.myshopify.com
🦂 Support my work on Patreon:
patreon.com/LukeRanieri
📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks:
luke-ranieri.myshopify.com
🎙 Latin & Greek audio:
lukeranieri.com/audio
#greek #attic #pronunciation
0:00:00 Intro
0:08:17 Summary of Teodorsson
0:11:53 Will Annis’ “The Error of Caragounis” (2008)
0:28:19 Erasmus’ Dialogue
0:38:48 His error on the circumflex accent
0:54:16 Cargounis’ “The Error of Erasmus and Un-Greek Pronunciations of Greek” (1995)
0:54:26 1. The Problem
1:02:17 2. The Error of Erasmus
1:08:34 The original “practical joke” explained
1:18:22 Problems with Erasmian in practice today
1:25:36 3. Historical Circumstances
1:29:18 Jannaris’ error
1:37:29 4. The “Historical” Pronunciation of Greek
2:01:55 Wrong alphabets
2:17:25 Vowel length
2:25:21 Delphic hymn
2:39:05 4.1 Criteria for determining the Pronunciation
2:55:40 4.2 Vowels & Diphthongs
3:19:10 4.3 Consonants
3:38:38 5. Accents, breathings, etc. (Prosody)
3:59:25 chain of wrongness
4:05:36 μh λh ρh explained
4:10:10 6. Corollaries
4:15:21 watch me agree with Caragounis wholeheartedly!
4:43:49 Romance Speakers & Classical Latin: Rodrigo Portela & Irene La Preziosa
![Does Latin have lax vowels? Refuting the qualities [ɪ] and [ʊ] for ĭ and ŭ in Classical Latin](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Mu-slOBurvM/hqdefault.jpg "Does Latin have lax vowels? Refuting the qualities [ɪ] and [ʊ] for ĭ and ŭ in Classical Latin
How are Latin vowels supposed to be pronounced? In this video I evaluate the pronunciation of Latin vowels according to W. Sydney Allen in his book Vox Latina, confronting his hypotheses with the inscriptional and linguistic evidence. Based on the data presented by J.N. Adams and Andrea Calabrese, I conclude that Allens system is incorrect for Classical Latin. This is the most detailed video I have made to date on the topic of the pronunciation of Latin vowels, and while a long video, I promise that patient viewers will find many interesting and important ideas that will help them to make their own decisions with respect to reciting, speaking, and teaching Latin.
*See below for timestamps.*
Many thanks to @Glossologia Raphael Turrigiano for his years of collaboration and friendship, whose guidance in these topics has been quintessential. He made extraordinary contributions to this study.
Timeline of authors of Latin, including the grammarians:
https://bit.ly/ranierilatingreekauthors
SOURCES
Vox Latina, by W. Sidney Allen
https://amzn.to/3WdPxSY
Calabrese, A., 2022, On the evolution of short high vowels of Latin into Romance
Social Variation and the Latin Language, by JN Adams
https://amzn.to/3TQ4tVF
The Regional Diversification of Latin 200 BC - AD 600, by JN Adams
https://amzn.to/3TRGZ2w
An Anthology of Informal Latin, 200 BC–AD 900: Fifty Texts with Translations and Linguistic Commentary, by JN Adams
https://amzn.to/3gSPOdM
Early and Late Latin: Continuity or Change?, by JN Adams
https://amzn.to/3WcqzDn
Late Latin and Early Romance in Spain and Carolingian France, by Roger Wright
https://amzn.to/3gVkgE0
The Roman Pronunciation of Latin, by Frances E. Lord
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/7528/7528-h/7528-h.htm
Breve grammatica storica dell’italiano, by Paolo D’Achille
https://amzn.to/3fcfv8V
🦂 Sign up for my Latin Pronunciation & Conversation series on Patreon:
https://www.patreon.com/posts/53942894
📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks:
https://luke-ranieri.myshopify.com
🦂 Support my work on Patreon:
https://www.patreon.com/LukeRanieri
📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks:
https://luke-ranieri.myshopify.com
🏛 Ancient Greek in Action · Free Greek Lessons:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLU1WuLg45SixsonRdfNNv-CPNq8xUwgam
👨🏫 My Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata playlist · Free Latin Lessons:
https://youtu.be/j7hd799IznU
🦂 ScorpioMartianus (my channel *entirely* in Latin & Ancient Greek)
https://www.youtube.com/polymathyluke
🌅 polýMATHY on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/lukeranieri/
🦁 Legio XIII Latin Language Podcast:
https://youtube.com/LegioXIII
🎙 Hundreds of hours of Latin & Greek audio:
https://lukeranieri.com/audio
👕 Merch:
https://teespring.com/stores/scorpiomartianus
🦂 https://www.ScorpioMartianus.com
🦅 https://www.LukeRanieri.com
#latin #pronunciation #linguistics
00:00:00 BLUF: Latin pronunciation as taught is wrong
00:00:57 Allens argument for ĭ = [ɪ] and ŭ = [ʊ] from Vox Latina
00:08:30 Ancient grammarians commentary
00:20:30 J.N. Adams Social Variation and the Latin Language
00:22:06 Repeat of Allens argument
00:27:42 Vowel confusions in Early Republican Latin
00:29:50 Alternative explanation #1 for Early Republican Latin mispellings: scribal confusion during pre-Classical vowel shift
00:31:54 Alternative explanation #2 for Early Republican Latin mispellings: vowel space differences between Greek and Latin
00:43:59 Adams conclusion on Early Republican Latin mispellings
00:46:02 Early Imperial evidence for changes in the front-vowel system
00:57:05 Pompeii graffiti
01:00:44 4 ways of interpreting dicet at Pompeii
01:01:32 Allens argument reviewed & further statistics
01:02:58 Sardinian & Pompeiian vowels are quite similar
01:08:58 Latin and Oscan vowel systems
01:11:38 Later Latin and front vowels
01:13:20 Review of what weve learned so far
01:17:53 Back-vowel merger evidence
01:22:08 Conclusion on back-vowel merger from Early Republican through Early Imperial times
01:22:52 Later Latin and back vowels
01:24:50 Conclusions on front and back vowel mergers
01:26:43 Regional variation
01:29:23 Adams final conclusions; social variation & vowels
01:32:06 Allens argument reviewed again
01:36:10 Diphthongs
01:42:03 Blowing off space dust: Allens argument reviewed once more
01:44:00 Calabreses argument from On the evolution of short high vowels of Latin into Romance
01:49:00 The strongest evidence for ĭ = [i] and ŭ = [u]
01:51:03 Map of Romance languages with ĭ to [i] and ŭ to [u]
01:54:30 Calabreses conclusion
01:56:46 Devils advocate: could Allen still be right that vowel quantity languages centralize short vowels?
02:02:30 Final review of Allens argument: does it stand up to scrutiny?
02:03:45 Conclusion")
