Uploaded December 2024 | Updated September 2026, 2 hours ago
Melanie Joy is a Harvard-educated psychologist who focuses on how individual mental patterns can cause (or block) social transformation. And she has focused much of her work recently on so-called “relational dysfunction” and “dysregulation” are undermining, not just social movements, but all of human society. We talk about what dysfunction and dysregulation in relationships looks like, and how to overcome it, in this conversation.
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Beyond Carnism’s website:
carnism.org
Learn more about Melanie’s award-winning book, “Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows” and download the first chapter for free:
carnism.org/books
End Infighting website:
infighting.org
Learn more about Melanie’s book, “How to End Injustice Everywhere”:
infighting.org/how-to-end-injustice-everywhere
Beyond Carnism’s social media links:
instagram.com/beyondcarnism
facebook.com/beyondcarnism
https://bsky.app/profile/beyondcarnism.bsky.social
youtube.com/@BeyondCarnism
Melanie Joy’s social media links:
instagram.com/drmelaniejoy
facebook.com/melaniejoyphd
https://bsky.app/profile/drmelaniejoy.bsky.social
linkedin.com/in/drmelaniejoy
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The Simple Heart on Substack - Subscribe to Wayne Hsiung's newsletter to learn more about the #RightToRescue at https://www.simpleheart.org!
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Chapters:
Chapter 1) 00:00-14:09 Intro, what is relational literacy (integrity, communication, and connection), social media, & responding to people that act morally superior to others
Chapter 2) 14:10-27:01 How to not call out individuals for bad behavior & on publicly shaming institutions
Chapter 3) 27:02-42:59 On anger vs contempt, on shame vs guilt, & how to use your anger in a productive way
Chapter 4) 43:00-53:09 On mindfulness and meditation & on social media and capitalism
Chapter 5) 53:10-1:04:04 About building relational literacy & are there limits of relational literacy
Chapter 6) 1:04:05-1:08:43 Why Melanie started working on relational literacy and activist infighting, use Beyond Carnism resources, & follow Beyond Carnism and Melanie (links above)
Chapter 7) 1:08:44-1:09:00 Outro video - Thank you for watching! Please Subscribe. Acknowledgments to the Podcast Team: Joe Allman, Adam Durand, & Chloe Leffakis
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Books/Articles Mentioned:
“No Bad Parts: Healing Trauma and Restoring Wholeness with the Internal Family Systems Model”
by Richard C. Schwartz (2021)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_C._Schwartz
“Getting Relationships Right: How to Build Resilience and Thrive in Life, Love, and Work”
by Melanie Joy
carnism.org/book/getting-relationships-right
“The Sociopaths Among Us—And How to Avoid Them: You’re bound to come across the ‘Dark Triad’ type of malignant narcissists in life—and they can be superficially appealing. Better to look for their exact opposite.” by Arthur C. Brooks
theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/dark-triads-toxic-personalities/675683
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Movies mentioned:
“Blackfish” (2013, Documentary)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfish_(film)
“Inside Out” (2015)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_Out_(2015_film)
“Inside Out 2” (2024)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_Out_2
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Apps mentioned:
“Waking Up: Meditation & Wisdom”
(This app is available only on the App Store for iPhone, iPad, and Apple Watch.)
apps.apple.com/us/app/waking-up-meditation-wisdom/id1307736395
“Waking Up: Beyond Meditation”
apps.apple.com/ni/app/waking-up-beyond-meditation/id1307736395
play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.wakingup.android&hl=en_US&pli=1
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Other links:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyashanti
adyashanti.opengatesangha.org
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Shukman
henryshukman.com
lochkelly.org
veganadvocacy.org
—
Melanie Joy is a Harvard-educated psychologist who focuses on how individual mental patterns can cause (or block) social transformation. And she has focused much of her work recently on so-called “relational dysfunction” and “dysregulation” are undermining, not just social movements, but all of human society. We talk about what dysfunction and dysregulation in relationships looks like, and how to overcome it, in this conversation.
—
Beyond Carnism’s website:
carnism.org
Learn more about Melanie’s award-winning book, “Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows” and download the first chapter for free:
carnism.org/books
End Infighting website:
infighting.org
Learn more about Melanie’s book, “How to End Injustice Everywhere”:
infighting.org/how-to-end-injustice-everywhere
Beyond Carnism’s social media links:
instagram.com/beyondcarnism
facebook.com/beyondcarnism
https://bsky.app/profile/beyondcarnism.bsky.social
youtube.com/@BeyondCarnism
Melanie Joy’s social media links:
instagram.com/drmelaniejoy
facebook.com/melaniejoyphd
https://bsky.app/profile/drmelaniejoy.bsky.social
linkedin.com/in/drmelaniejoy
—
The Simple Heart on Substack - Subscribe to Wayne Hsiung's newsletter to learn more about the #RightToRescue at https://www.simpleheart.org!
—
Chapters:
Chapter 1) 00:00-14:09 Intro, what is relational literacy (integrity, communication, and connection), social media, & responding to people that act morally superior to others
Chapter 2) 14:10-27:01 How to not call out individuals for bad behavior & on publicly shaming institutions
Chapter 3) 27:02-42:59 On anger vs contempt, on shame vs guilt, & how to use your anger in a productive way
Chapter 4) 43:00-53:09 On mindfulness and meditation & on social media and capitalism
Chapter 5) 53:10-1:04:04 About building relational literacy & are there limits of relational literacy
Chapter 6) 1:04:05-1:08:43 Why Melanie started working on relational literacy and activist infighting, use Beyond Carnism resources, & follow Beyond Carnism and Melanie (links above)
Chapter 7) 1:08:44-1:09:00 Outro video - Thank you for watching! Please Subscribe. Acknowledgments to the Podcast Team: Joe Allman, Adam Durand, & Chloe Leffakis
—
Books/Articles Mentioned:
“No Bad Parts: Healing Trauma and Restoring Wholeness with the Internal Family Systems Model”
by Richard C. Schwartz (2021)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_C._Schwartz
“Getting Relationships Right: How to Build Resilience and Thrive in Life, Love, and Work”
by Melanie Joy
carnism.org/book/getting-relationships-right
“The Sociopaths Among Us—And How to Avoid Them: You’re bound to come across the ‘Dark Triad’ type of malignant narcissists in life—and they can be superficially appealing. Better to look for their exact opposite.” by Arthur C. Brooks
theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/dark-triads-toxic-personalities/675683
—
Movies mentioned:
“Blackfish” (2013, Documentary)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfish_(film)
“Inside Out” (2015)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_Out_(2015_film)
“Inside Out 2” (2024)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside_Out_2
—
Apps mentioned:
“Waking Up: Meditation & Wisdom”
(This app is available only on the App Store for iPhone, iPad, and Apple Watch.)
apps.apple.com/us/app/waking-up-meditation-wisdom/id1307736395
“Waking Up: Beyond Meditation”
apps.apple.com/ni/app/waking-up-beyond-meditation/id1307736395
play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.wakingup.android&hl=en_US&pli=1
—
Other links:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyashanti
adyashanti.opengatesangha.org
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Shukman
henryshukman.com
lochkelly.org
veganadvocacy.org
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