![He Co-Invented the Transformer. Now: Continuous Thought Machines [Llion Jones / Luke Darlow] @MachineLearningStreetTalk](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/DtePicx_kFY/maxresdefault.jpg)
Uploaded November 2025 | Updated September 2026, 1 week ago
The Transformer architecture (which powers ChatGPT and nearly all modern AI) might be trapping the industry in a localized rut, preventing us from finding true intelligent reasoning, according to the person who co-invented it. Llion Jones and Luke Darlow, key figures at the research lab Sakana AI, join the show to make this provocative argument, and also introduce new research (CTM) which might lead the way forwards.
We speak about "Inventor's Remorse" & The Trap of Success Despite being one of the original authors of the famous "Attention Is All You Need" paper that gave birth to the Transformer, Llion explains why he has largely stopped working on them. He argues that the industry is suffering from "success capture"—because Transformers work so well, everyone is focused on making small tweaks to the same architecture rather than discovering the next big leap.
**SPONSOR MESSAGES START**
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The "Spiral" Problem – Llion uses a striking visual analogy to explain what current AI is missing. If you ask a standard neural network to understand a spiral shape, it solves it by drawing tiny straight lines that just happen to look like a spiral. It "fakes" the shape without understanding the concept of spiraling. They argue that today's AI models are similar—they are incredible at mimicking intelligent answers without having an internal process of "thinking".
Introducing the Continuous Thought Machine (CTM) Luke Darlow deep dives into their solution: a biology-inspired model that fundamentally changes how AI processes information.
The Maze Analogy: Luke explains that standard AI tries to solve a maze by staring at the whole image and guessing the entire path instantly. Their new machine "walks" through the maze step-by-step.
Thinking Time: This allows the AI to "ponder." If a problem is hard, the model can naturally spend more time thinking about it before answering, effectively allowing it to correct its own mistakes and backtrack—something current Language Models struggle to do genuinely.
The pair discuss the culture of Sakana AI, which is modeled after the early days of Google Brain/DeepMind. Llion nostalgically recalls that the Transformer wasn't born from a corporate mandate, but from random people talking over lunch about interesting problems.
sakana.ai
https://x.com/YesThisIsLion
https://x.com/LearningLukeD
TRANSCRIPT:
app.rescript.info/public/share/crjzQ-Jo2FQsJc97xsBdfzfOIeMONpg0TFBuCgV2Fu8
TOC:
00:00:00 - Stepping Back from Transformers
00:00:43 - Introduction to Continuous Thought Machines (CTM)
00:01:09 - The Changing Atmosphere of AI Research
00:04:13 - Sakana’s Philosophy: Research Freedom
00:07:45 - The Local Minimum of Large Language Models
00:18:30 - Representation Problems: The Spiral Example
00:29:12 - Technical Deep Dive: CTM Architecture
00:36:00 - Adaptive Computation & Maze Solving
00:47:15 - Model Calibration & Uncertainty
01:00:43 - Sudoku Bench: Measuring True Reasoning
REFS:
Why Greatness Cannot be planned [Kenneth Stanley]
amazon.co.uk/Why-Greatness-Cannot-Planned-Objective/dp/3319155237
youtube.com/watch?v=lhYGXYeMq_E
The Hardware Lottery [Sara Hooker]
arxiv.org/abs/2009.06489
youtube.com/watch?v=sQFxbQ7ade0
Continuous Thought Machines [Luke Darlow et al / Sakana]
arxiv.org/abs/2505.05522
sakana.ai/ctm
youtu.be/5X9cjGLggv0 great walkthrough of algo by Yacine Mahdid
LSTM: The Comeback Story? [Prof. Sepp Hochreiter]
youtube.com/watch?v=8u2pW2zZLCs
Questioning Representational Optimism in Deep Learning: The Fractured Entangled Representation Hypothesis [Kumar/Stanley]
arxiv.org/pdf/2505.11581
Intelligent Matrix Exponentiation [Thomas Fischbacher] (Spiral reference)
arxiv.org/abs/2008.03936
A Spline Theory of Deep Networks [Randall Balestriero]
https://proceedings.mlr.press/v80/balestriero18b/balestriero18b.pdf
youtube.com/watch?v=86ib0sfdFtw
youtube.com/watch?v=l3O2J3LMxqI
On the Biology of a Large Language Model [Anthropic, Jack Lindsey et al]
https://transformer-circuits.pub/2025/attribution-graphs/biology.html
The ARC Prize 2024 Winning Algorithm [Daniel Franzen and Jan Disselhoff] “The ARChitects”
youtube.com/watch?v=mTX_sAq--zY
Neural Turing Machine [Graves]
arxiv.org/pdf/1410.5401
Adaptive Computation Time for Recurrent Neural Networks [Graves]
arxiv.org/abs/1603.08983
Sudoko Bench [Sakana]
pub.sakana.ai/sudoku
The Transformer architecture (which powers ChatGPT and nearly all modern AI) might be trapping the industry in a localized rut, preventing us from finding true intelligent reasoning, according to the person who co-invented it. Llion Jones and Luke Darlow, key figures at the research lab Sakana AI, join the show to make this provocative argument, and also introduce new research (CTM) which might lead the way forwards.
We speak about "Inventor's Remorse" & The Trap of Success Despite being one of the original authors of the famous "Attention Is All You Need" paper that gave birth to the Transformer, Llion explains why he has largely stopped working on them. He argues that the industry is suffering from "success capture"—because Transformers work so well, everyone is focused on making small tweaks to the same architecture rather than discovering the next big leap.
**SPONSOR MESSAGES START**
—
Build your ideas with AI Studio from Google - http://ai.studio/build
—
Tufa AI Labs is hiring ML Research Engineers tufalabs.ai
—
cyber•Fund https://cyber.fund/?utm_source=mlst is a founder-led investment firm accelerating the cybernetic economy
Hiring a SF VC Principal: https://talent.cyber.fund/companies/cyber-fund-2/jobs/57674170-ai-investment-principal#content?utm_source=mlst
Submit investment deck: https://cyber.fund/contact?utm_source=mlst
—
**END**
The "Spiral" Problem – Llion uses a striking visual analogy to explain what current AI is missing. If you ask a standard neural network to understand a spiral shape, it solves it by drawing tiny straight lines that just happen to look like a spiral. It "fakes" the shape without understanding the concept of spiraling. They argue that today's AI models are similar—they are incredible at mimicking intelligent answers without having an internal process of "thinking".
Introducing the Continuous Thought Machine (CTM) Luke Darlow deep dives into their solution: a biology-inspired model that fundamentally changes how AI processes information.
The Maze Analogy: Luke explains that standard AI tries to solve a maze by staring at the whole image and guessing the entire path instantly. Their new machine "walks" through the maze step-by-step.
Thinking Time: This allows the AI to "ponder." If a problem is hard, the model can naturally spend more time thinking about it before answering, effectively allowing it to correct its own mistakes and backtrack—something current Language Models struggle to do genuinely.
The pair discuss the culture of Sakana AI, which is modeled after the early days of Google Brain/DeepMind. Llion nostalgically recalls that the Transformer wasn't born from a corporate mandate, but from random people talking over lunch about interesting problems.
sakana.ai
https://x.com/YesThisIsLion
https://x.com/LearningLukeD
TRANSCRIPT:
app.rescript.info/public/share/crjzQ-Jo2FQsJc97xsBdfzfOIeMONpg0TFBuCgV2Fu8
TOC:
00:00:00 - Stepping Back from Transformers
00:00:43 - Introduction to Continuous Thought Machines (CTM)
00:01:09 - The Changing Atmosphere of AI Research
00:04:13 - Sakana’s Philosophy: Research Freedom
00:07:45 - The Local Minimum of Large Language Models
00:18:30 - Representation Problems: The Spiral Example
00:29:12 - Technical Deep Dive: CTM Architecture
00:36:00 - Adaptive Computation & Maze Solving
00:47:15 - Model Calibration & Uncertainty
01:00:43 - Sudoku Bench: Measuring True Reasoning
REFS:
Why Greatness Cannot be planned [Kenneth Stanley]
amazon.co.uk/Why-Greatness-Cannot-Planned-Objective/dp/3319155237
youtube.com/watch?v=lhYGXYeMq_E
The Hardware Lottery [Sara Hooker]
arxiv.org/abs/2009.06489
youtube.com/watch?v=sQFxbQ7ade0
Continuous Thought Machines [Luke Darlow et al / Sakana]
arxiv.org/abs/2505.05522
sakana.ai/ctm
youtu.be/5X9cjGLggv0 great walkthrough of algo by Yacine Mahdid
LSTM: The Comeback Story? [Prof. Sepp Hochreiter]
youtube.com/watch?v=8u2pW2zZLCs
Questioning Representational Optimism in Deep Learning: The Fractured Entangled Representation Hypothesis [Kumar/Stanley]
arxiv.org/pdf/2505.11581
Intelligent Matrix Exponentiation [Thomas Fischbacher] (Spiral reference)
arxiv.org/abs/2008.03936
A Spline Theory of Deep Networks [Randall Balestriero]
https://proceedings.mlr.press/v80/balestriero18b/balestriero18b.pdf
youtube.com/watch?v=86ib0sfdFtw
youtube.com/watch?v=l3O2J3LMxqI
On the Biology of a Large Language Model [Anthropic, Jack Lindsey et al]
https://transformer-circuits.pub/2025/attribution-graphs/biology.html
The ARC Prize 2024 Winning Algorithm [Daniel Franzen and Jan Disselhoff] “The ARChitects”
youtube.com/watch?v=mTX_sAq--zY
Neural Turing Machine [Graves]
arxiv.org/pdf/1410.5401
Adaptive Computation Time for Recurrent Neural Networks [Graves]
arxiv.org/abs/1603.08983
Sudoko Bench [Sakana]
pub.sakana.ai/sudoku
![He Co-Invented the Transformer. Now: Continuous Thought Machines [Llion Jones / Luke Darlow]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/DtePicx_kFY/mqdefault.jpg "He Co-Invented the Transformer. Now: Continuous Thought Machines [Llion Jones / Luke Darlow]
The Transformer architecture (which powers ChatGPT and nearly all modern AI) might be trapping the industry in a localized rut, preventing us from finding true intelligent reasoning, according to the person who co-invented it. Llion Jones and Luke Darlow, key figures at the research lab Sakana AI, join the show to make this provocative argument, and also introduce new research (CTM) which might lead the way forwards.
We speak about Inventors Remorse & The Trap of Success Despite being one of the original authors of the famous Attention Is All You Need paper that gave birth to the Transformer, Llion explains why he has largely stopped working on them. He argues that the industry is suffering from success capture—because Transformers work so well, everyone is focused on making small tweaks to the same architecture rather than discovering the next big leap.
**SPONSOR MESSAGES START**
—
Build your ideas with AI Studio from Google - http://ai.studio/build
—
Tufa AI Labs is hiring ML Research Engineers https://tufalabs.ai/
—
cyber•Fund https://cyber.fund/?utm_source=mlst is a founder-led investment firm accelerating the cybernetic economy
Hiring a SF VC Principal: https://talent.cyber.fund/companies/cyber-fund-2/jobs/57674170-ai-investment-principal#content?utm_source=mlst
Submit investment deck: https://cyber.fund/contact?utm_source=mlst
—
**END**
The Spiral Problem – Llion uses a striking visual analogy to explain what current AI is missing. If you ask a standard neural network to understand a spiral shape, it solves it by drawing tiny straight lines that just happen to look like a spiral. It fakes the shape without understanding the concept of spiraling. They argue that todays AI models are similar—they are incredible at mimicking intelligent answers without having an internal process of thinking.
Introducing the Continuous Thought Machine (CTM) Luke Darlow deep dives into their solution: a biology-inspired model that fundamentally changes how AI processes information.
The Maze Analogy: Luke explains that standard AI tries to solve a maze by staring at the whole image and guessing the entire path instantly. Their new machine walks through the maze step-by-step.
Thinking Time: This allows the AI to ponder. If a problem is hard, the model can naturally spend more time thinking about it before answering, effectively allowing it to correct its own mistakes and backtrack—something current Language Models struggle to do genuinely.
The pair discuss the culture of Sakana AI, which is modeled after the early days of Google Brain/DeepMind. Llion nostalgically recalls that the Transformer wasnt born from a corporate mandate, but from random people talking over lunch about interesting problems.
https://sakana.ai/
https://x.com/YesThisIsLion
https://x.com/LearningLukeD
TRANSCRIPT:
https://app.rescript.info/public/share/crjzQ-Jo2FQsJc97xsBdfzfOIeMONpg0TFBuCgV2Fu8
TOC:
00:00:00 - Stepping Back from Transformers
00:00:43 - Introduction to Continuous Thought Machines (CTM)
00:01:09 - The Changing Atmosphere of AI Research
00:04:13 - Sakana’s Philosophy: Research Freedom
00:07:45 - The Local Minimum of Large Language Models
00:18:30 - Representation Problems: The Spiral Example
00:29:12 - Technical Deep Dive: CTM Architecture
00:36:00 - Adaptive Computation & Maze Solving
00:47:15 - Model Calibration & Uncertainty
01:00:43 - Sudoku Bench: Measuring True Reasoning
REFS:
Why Greatness Cannot be planned [Kenneth Stanley]
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Greatness-Cannot-Planned-Objective/dp/3319155237
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhYGXYeMq_E
The Hardware Lottery [Sara Hooker]
https://arxiv.org/abs/2009.06489
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQFxbQ7ade0
Continuous Thought Machines [Luke Darlow et al / Sakana]
https://arxiv.org/abs/2505.05522
https://sakana.ai/ctm/
https://youtu.be/5X9cjGLggv0 great walkthrough of algo by Yacine Mahdid
LSTM: The Comeback Story? [Prof. Sepp Hochreiter]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u2pW2zZLCs
Questioning Representational Optimism in Deep Learning: The Fractured Entangled Representation Hypothesis [Kumar/Stanley]
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2505.11581
Intelligent Matrix Exponentiation [Thomas Fischbacher] (Spiral reference)
https://arxiv.org/abs/2008.03936
A Spline Theory of Deep Networks [Randall Balestriero]
https://proceedings.mlr.press/v80/balestriero18b/balestriero18b.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86ib0sfdFtw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3O2J3LMxqI
On the Biology of a Large Language Model [Anthropic, Jack Lindsey et al]
https://transformer-circuits.pub/2025/attribution-graphs/biology.html
The ARC Prize 2024 Winning Algorithm [Daniel Franzen and Jan Disselhoff] “The ARChitects”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTX_sAq zY
Neural Turing Machine [Graves]
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1410.5401
Adaptive Computation Time for Recurrent Neural Networks [Graves]
https://arxiv.org/abs/1603.08983
Sudoko Bench [Sakana]
https://pub.sakana.ai/sudoku/")
![Transformers Need Glasses! [Federico Barbero]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/FAspMnu4Rt0/mqdefault.jpg "Transformers Need Glasses! [Federico Barbero]
SPONSOR MESSAGES:
***
CentML offers competitive pricing for GenAI model deployment, with flexible options to suit a wide range of models, from small to large-scale deployments. Check out their super fast DeepSeek R1 hosting!
https://centml.ai/pricing/
Federico Barbero (DeepMind/Oxford) is the lead author of Transformers Need Glasses!, a paper revealing fundamental architectural limitations in transformer-based language models. The conversation explores why LLMs fail at seemingly trivial tasks like copying the last token of a sequence or counting repeated elements, tracing these failures to representation collapse — where internal representations of distinct inputs converge below machine precision as context length grows. Federico connects these findings to information propagation theory from graph neural networks, showing how causal attention creates an inherent bias toward the start of a sequence, while training dynamics push models to attend to the most recent tokens, leaving the middle of long contexts as a blind spot. The discussion covers connections to spectral graph theory, heat equations on graphs, Petar Veličkovićs work on graph attention networks, the role of softmax in limiting sharp attention, and practical glasses — architectural tweaks that can help transformers see more clearly.
REFERENCES:
paper:
[00:01:05] Transformers Need Glasses!
https://proceedings.neurips.cc/paper_files/paper/2024/file/b1d35561c4a4a0e0b6012b2af531e149-Paper-Conference.pdf
[00:05:30] Softmax is Not Enough
https://arxiv.org/abs/2410.01104
[00:15:05] Graph Attention Networks
https://arxiv.org/abs/1710.10903
[00:43:23] Neural Networks and the Chomsky Hierarchy
https://arxiv.org/abs/2207.02098
[00:51:04] On the Measure of Intelligence
https://arxiv.org/abs/1911.01547
[01:00:35] Epistemic Foraging
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/computational-neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fncom.2016.00056/full
LINKS:
Full Transcript: https://app.rescript.info/share/d43b3918dc7cb8c8b822ebef40b8f66f
Download PDF transcript: https://app.rescript.info/api/public/sessions/53f7d10ff5c72eca/pdf")
![MIGHT THE ROBOTS TAKE OVER? [Prof. Yoshua Bengio]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/G1ARvwQntAU/mqdefault.jpg "MIGHT THE ROBOTS TAKE OVER? [Prof. Yoshua Bengio]
SPONSOR MESSAGES:
***
CentML offers competitive pricing for GenAI model deployment, with flexible options to suit a wide range of models, from small to large-scale deployments.
https://centml.ai/pricing/
Turing Award winner Professor Yoshua Bengio sits down with Tim Scarfe for a wide-ranging discussion on AI safety, the architecture of intelligence, and what happens when machines become as capable as our best researchers.
Bengio argues that the current race toward agentic AI systems carries fundamental risks that most people underestimate. He lays out how instrumental convergence and reward tampering could lead systems to develop goals misaligned with human interests not through malice, but through the basic logic of optimization. His proposed alternative: powerful AI tools that function as scientific oracles rather than autonomous agents, systems that can revolutionize medicine and science without needing goals of their own.
The conversation covers international AI governance and the game theory driving the US-China competition, the military implications of frontier AI capabilities, and why hardware-enabled governance may be the most promising path toward verifiable AI treaties. Bengio draws direct parallels to nuclear nonproliferation and warns that data centers will become strategic military assets.
On the technical side, Bengio discusses the return of recurrent architectures (the Were RNNs All We Needed? paper), his work on GFlowNets for probabilistic inference with discrete structures, a complexity-based theory of compositionality that tries to formalize what was previously just intuition, and the question of whether System 2 reasoning needs to be designed from first principles rather than bolted onto existing architectures.
Throughout, Bengio repeatedly emphasizes what he does not know a deliberate stance he contrasts with the overconfidence he sees driving dangerous policy decisions.
REFERENCES:
paper:
[00:00:15] AI Risk Statement
https://www.safe.ai/work/statement-on-ai-risk
[00:23:10] Reward Tampering and AI Safety
https://hdsr.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/w974bwb0
[00:44:30] Can a Bayesian Oracle Prevent Harm?
https://arxiv.org/abs/2408.05284
[00:52:00] Hardware-Enabled AI Governance Memo
https://yoshuabengio.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/FlexHEG-Memo_August-2024.pdf
[01:33:20] GFlowNet Foundations
https://arxiv.org/abs/2111.09266
[01:35:05] Complexity-Based Compositionality Theory
https://arxiv.org/abs/2410.14817
[01:37:50] Discrete Attractor States in Neural Systems
https://arxiv.org/abs/2302.06403
person:
[00:03:50] Professor Yoshua Bengio
https://yoshuabengio.org/
tool:
[00:40:45] Munk Debate on AI Existential Risk
https://munkdebates.com/debates/artificial-intelligence
[00:56:07] 2018 Turing Award
https://awards.acm.org/about/2018-turing
[01:12:35] EU AI Act Code of Practice
https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/news/meet-chairs-leading-development-first-general-purpose-ai-code-practice
LINKS:
Full Transcript: https://app.rescript.info/share/1c4f010852d0db9a34dbeb043c0da26b
Download PDF transcript: https://app.rescript.info/api/public/sessions/baff3f8846202250/pdf
Yoshua Bengio:
https://x.com/Yoshua_Bengio
https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=kukA0LcAAAAJ&hl=en
https://yoshuabengio.org/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshua_Bengio")
![Is Thermo AI the future? [Guillaume Verdon aka Beff Jezos]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/HR-_U0Pzl1Y/mqdefault.jpg "Is Thermo AI the future? [Guillaume Verdon aka Beff Jezos]
Dr. Maxwell Ramstead hosts Guillaume Verdon physicist, founder of Extropic, and the mind behind the Beff Jezos persona and the Effective Accelerationism movement for a conversation that bridges thermodynamics, computing hardware, and civilizational philosophy.
Verdon traces his path from childhood fascination with theories of everything through theoretical physics at the Perimeter Institute, quantum computing at Google, and the founding of Extropic. The core technical insight: instead of fighting thermal noise at enormous energetic cost (as quantum computers do), thermodynamic computing harnesses it. Extropics chips use the natural stochastic physics of electrons to accelerate Markov chain Monte Carlo sampling the same class of algorithms that underpin diffusion models, energy-based models, and much of modern probabilistic ML.
The numbers are striking. Current wafer-scale AI systems consume 20+ kilowatts. A thermodynamic wafer with 1.5 billion p-bits and 20 billion parameters would run on 20 watts roughly what the human brain uses. Verdon argues this is not a coincidence: the brain is literally a thermodynamic computer operating near the Landauer limit, and Extropic is building silicon that works on the same principles.
The second half turns to philosophy. Verdon derives Effective Accelerationism directly from stochastic thermodynamics: thermodynamic selection pressure favors systems that capture and dissipate more free energy, so growth is not just desirable but physically inevitable. He and Ramstead explore hyperstition through the lens of active inference, the geopolitical stakes of the US-China technology race, and why Verdon views deceleration as a form of psychological warfare against Western competitiveness.
Recorded with Maxwell Ramstead hosting in place of Tim Scarfe.
***SPONSOR MESSAGE***
Google Gemini 2.5 Flash is a state-of-the-art language model in the Gemini app. Sign up at https://gemini.google.com
***
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Intro Montage & Sponsor
00:02:21 From Theories of Everything to Thermodynamic Computing
00:08:41 The Failure of Reductionism & Physics-Inspired AI
00:17:15 From Quantum to Thermodynamic Computing
00:23:56 How Thermodynamic Computers Actually Work
00:31:15 Moores Wall & The Brain as Proof of Concept
00:40:00 The Computing Stack of the Future
00:48:23 Why Current AI Will Cook Us to Death
00:50:38 Effective Accelerationism: The Philosophy of Beff Jezos
01:00:00 Hyperstition, Geopolitics & Avoiding Catastrophe
01:16:00 Closing: The Future of Extropic & Getting Involved
REFERENCES:
paper:
[00:04:40] It From Bit
https://cqi.inf.usi.ch/qic/wheeler.pdf
[00:06:15] Renormalization Group Theory
https://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/dbs26/AQFT/Wilsonchap.pdf
[00:23:00] Metropolis-Hastings Algorithm
https://arxiv.org/abs/1504.01896
[00:40:00] Deep Information Bottleneck and Renormalization
https://arxiv.org/abs/1907.07331
[00:40:00] Energy-Based Models (EBMs)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/200744586_A_tutorial_on_energy-based_learning
[01:03:00] Free Energy Principle and Active Inference
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrn2787
concept:
[00:05:30] Holographic Principle (AdS/CFT Correspondence)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle
[00:20:00] Markov Chain Monte Carlo (MCMC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markov_chain_Monte_Carlo
[00:21:10] Maxwells Demon and Information Theory
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/information-entropy/
[00:29:45] Landauers Principle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle
[01:11:40] Fishers Fundamental Theorem of Natural Selection
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher%27s_fundamental_theorem_of_natural_selection
LINKS:
Full Transcript: https://app.rescript.info/share/21936dd6830231c0194e8b2908f4d963
Download PDF transcript: https://app.rescript.info/api/public/sessions/a34e6a9a2ed827b9/pdf")
