Uploaded May 2026 | Updated September 2026, 3 weeks ago
"I don't like J work."
That was Andy — a top serial innovator at SAIC — telling his manager Dennis what he needed to be protected from. J work, in Andy's field of computational electromagnetics, is the imaginary part of a number. To Andy, it meant the imaginary work of staff meetings, budgets and reports. Dennis's job was to keep him in real work. Most managers do the opposite.
In the final part of our Serial Innovators series, Bruce Vojak closes the loop on how organisations find these rare people, develop them, and manage them without accidentally driving them out the door.
Bruce is co-author of Serial Innovators: How Individuals Create and Deliver Breakthrough Innovations in Mature Firms (with Ray Price and Abby Griffin), founder of Breakthrough Innovation Advisors, and former Associate Dean for Administration at the University of Illinois College of Engineering.
In this conversation, Bruce reveals:
→ Why mechanistic CV-screening — and now AI-powered hiring filters — systematically screen out your future serial innovators
→ The four engagement filters that actually identify one: problems, projects, business and people
→ The five core traits: systems thinking, above-average (not extreme) creativity, innate curiosity, deep-expertise intuition, and the intrinsic drive to make things better
→ Why innovators spot innovators — and why your best HR move is letting them sit on the hiring panel
→ Why π-shaped (pi-shaped) workers — broad across domains AND deep in multiple specialisms — beat T-shaped specialists
→ The apprenticeship model that develops serial innovators faster than any formal training programme
→ Golden handcuffs and the "fur-lined mousetrap" most serial innovators eventually walk into
→ The Dennis-and-Andy story at DEMACO/SAIC — and what Dennis did right that almost every other manager gets wrong
→ The pheasant hunting in Iowa metaphor — why over-managed budgets leave no nesting ground for the future of your business
→ The five things every manager has to do — air cover, patience, running interference, no bureaucratic J work, no daily progress reports
→ Why phase-gate control is the slow death of breakthrough innovation
→ Where Bruce respectfully diverges from Clay Christensen on whether innovation can survive inside the organisation — or has to be spun out
00:00 Executive Innovator Balance
00:37 Sponsor Message
01:03 Serial Innovators Intro
01:08 HR Screening Problem
03:02 Four Engagement Filters
04:46 Engaging With Problems
05:28 Projects Tenacity
06:29 Business Mindset
07:16 People And Customers
08:33 Research Method War Room
10:46 Five Core Traits
12:12 Innovators Spot Innovators
14:05 Career Phases 0 To 10
17:06 Hard Problems Early
17:58 Apprenticeship Model
18:52 Burnout And Choosing Battles
22:33 Innovator Versus Inventor
24:24 Nurturing Through Exposure
27:05 Budget Barriers Story
29:59 AI Hiring And Hidden Signals
31:44 HR Triads And Policy Limits
33:04 Golden Handcuffs Risk
34:34 Managing For Impact Setup
35:52 Relational Management Style
37:41 Innovation As Dance
38:09 Incentives And Motivation
40:51 Demco SAIC Case Study
44:08 Pheasant Metaphor Budgets
47:12 Avoiding J Work
49:55 Manager Air Cover Tips
52:03 Phase Gates And Control
55:53 Ego And Incentive Traps
59:54 Christensen Inside Vs Spinout
01:03:58 Pi Shaped Innovators
01:08:16 No Excuses Innovation Preview
01:11:33 Wrap Up And Where To Find
About Bruce Vojak
Bruce is co-author of Serial Innovators and Innovation Code, founder of Breakthrough Innovation Advisors, and former Associate Dean for Administration at the University of Illinois College of Engineering. He advises executive teams and boards on how to find, support and unleash serial innovators inside mature firms.
Website: breakthrough-innovation-advisors.com
About the host
Aidan McCullen is the 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, an in-demand keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). A former professional rugby player whose second career has been spent helping organisations reinvent themselves before the market reinvents them. Learn more or enquire about booking him for a keynote at theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen
Connect:
🌐 theinnovationshow.io
📨 thethursdaythought.substack.com
🎧 Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669
🎧 Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450
▶️ YouTube: youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow
🔗 LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen
#SerialInnovators #BruceVojak #Innovation #BreakthroughInnovation #Leadership #InnovationManagement #PiShapedPeople #JWork #ClayChristensen #DEMACO #SAIC #TheInnovationShow #AidanMcCullen #Thinkers50 #Podcast #HiringInnovators #AIHiring
"I don't like J work."
That was Andy — a top serial innovator at SAIC — telling his manager Dennis what he needed to be protected from. J work, in Andy's field of computational electromagnetics, is the imaginary part of a number. To Andy, it meant the imaginary work of staff meetings, budgets and reports. Dennis's job was to keep him in real work. Most managers do the opposite.
In the final part of our Serial Innovators series, Bruce Vojak closes the loop on how organisations find these rare people, develop them, and manage them without accidentally driving them out the door.
Bruce is co-author of Serial Innovators: How Individuals Create and Deliver Breakthrough Innovations in Mature Firms (with Ray Price and Abby Griffin), founder of Breakthrough Innovation Advisors, and former Associate Dean for Administration at the University of Illinois College of Engineering.
In this conversation, Bruce reveals:
→ Why mechanistic CV-screening — and now AI-powered hiring filters — systematically screen out your future serial innovators
→ The four engagement filters that actually identify one: problems, projects, business and people
→ The five core traits: systems thinking, above-average (not extreme) creativity, innate curiosity, deep-expertise intuition, and the intrinsic drive to make things better
→ Why innovators spot innovators — and why your best HR move is letting them sit on the hiring panel
→ Why π-shaped (pi-shaped) workers — broad across domains AND deep in multiple specialisms — beat T-shaped specialists
→ The apprenticeship model that develops serial innovators faster than any formal training programme
→ Golden handcuffs and the "fur-lined mousetrap" most serial innovators eventually walk into
→ The Dennis-and-Andy story at DEMACO/SAIC — and what Dennis did right that almost every other manager gets wrong
→ The pheasant hunting in Iowa metaphor — why over-managed budgets leave no nesting ground for the future of your business
→ The five things every manager has to do — air cover, patience, running interference, no bureaucratic J work, no daily progress reports
→ Why phase-gate control is the slow death of breakthrough innovation
→ Where Bruce respectfully diverges from Clay Christensen on whether innovation can survive inside the organisation — or has to be spun out
00:00 Executive Innovator Balance
00:37 Sponsor Message
01:03 Serial Innovators Intro
01:08 HR Screening Problem
03:02 Four Engagement Filters
04:46 Engaging With Problems
05:28 Projects Tenacity
06:29 Business Mindset
07:16 People And Customers
08:33 Research Method War Room
10:46 Five Core Traits
12:12 Innovators Spot Innovators
14:05 Career Phases 0 To 10
17:06 Hard Problems Early
17:58 Apprenticeship Model
18:52 Burnout And Choosing Battles
22:33 Innovator Versus Inventor
24:24 Nurturing Through Exposure
27:05 Budget Barriers Story
29:59 AI Hiring And Hidden Signals
31:44 HR Triads And Policy Limits
33:04 Golden Handcuffs Risk
34:34 Managing For Impact Setup
35:52 Relational Management Style
37:41 Innovation As Dance
38:09 Incentives And Motivation
40:51 Demco SAIC Case Study
44:08 Pheasant Metaphor Budgets
47:12 Avoiding J Work
49:55 Manager Air Cover Tips
52:03 Phase Gates And Control
55:53 Ego And Incentive Traps
59:54 Christensen Inside Vs Spinout
01:03:58 Pi Shaped Innovators
01:08:16 No Excuses Innovation Preview
01:11:33 Wrap Up And Where To Find
About Bruce Vojak
Bruce is co-author of Serial Innovators and Innovation Code, founder of Breakthrough Innovation Advisors, and former Associate Dean for Administration at the University of Illinois College of Engineering. He advises executive teams and boards on how to find, support and unleash serial innovators inside mature firms.
Website: breakthrough-innovation-advisors.com
About the host
Aidan McCullen is the 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, an in-demand keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). A former professional rugby player whose second career has been spent helping organisations reinvent themselves before the market reinvents them. Learn more or enquire about booking him for a keynote at theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen
Connect:
🌐 theinnovationshow.io
📨 thethursdaythought.substack.com
🎧 Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669
🎧 Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450
▶️ YouTube: youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow
🔗 LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen
#SerialInnovators #BruceVojak #Innovation #BreakthroughInnovation #Leadership #InnovationManagement #PiShapedPeople #JWork #ClayChristensen #DEMACO #SAIC #TheInnovationShow #AidanMcCullen #Thinkers50 #Podcast #HiringInnovators #AIHiring
