Uploaded July 2026 | Updated September 2026, 3 weeks ago
Across huge swathes of the global economy, clean solutions are already cheaper than their fossil alternatives, and so a carbon price isn’t needed. But in other sections of the economy, the costs of green tech are higher, and so carbon pricing will be needed to make them cost competitive. But what should that price be, and how can it be successfully implemented?
This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich is joined by Professor Ross Garnaut, a towering figure in the debate about how to implement carbon pricing, and founder of the Superpower Institute. Having advised successive Australian governments on climate policy since 2007, Ross makes the case for how Australia can export green iron, ammonia, and carbon-based fuels to industrialised economies that don't have the land or renewable resources to decarbonise on their own.
They discuss the politics behind Australia's stop-start carbon pricing, whether green hydrogen can ever get cheap enough to make the Superpower vision work, and how First Nations communities are shaping decisions about the land use. They also explore the tension between protectionism and security concerns over Chinese supply chains, and whether China's undervalued currency is holding back global competitiveness.
Topics covered in this episode:
• Australian climate policy under different Prime Ministers
• Australia as a low-carbon superpower
• Exporting molecules vs exporting electricity
• First Nations involvement in land use
• The green hydrogen cost debate
• Protectionism vs. security concerns
• Pinning down an actual carbon price
• Trade imbalances and exchange rates
Leadership Circle:
Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live.
Links:
• Watch our full Deep Dive Australia Series: youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc8cNKXCII70&si=GmXz-zQe3yK42V3o
• Ross Garnaut’s bio: https://www.rossgarnaut.com.au/
• Malcolm Turnbull on Cleaning Up: youtube.com/watch?v=t9CUGRHCswU
• Tony Abbott on Cleaning Up: youtube.com/watch?v=_39HmAgq9RY
• The Superpower Institute: https://www.superpowerinstitute.com.au/
• The SuperPower Institute reports: https://www.superpowerinstitute.com.au/work?type=report
• Superpower: Australia's Low-Carbon Opportunity by Ross Garnaut: https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/superpower
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
02:48 Ross Garnaut's Climate Journey
11:41 The Superpower Thesis
21:31 Ammonia, Land & Biocarbon
32:24 The Green Hydrogen Debate
37:15 Wind Costs & Supply Chains
42:01 Carbon Pricing: How High?
49:04 China's Exchange Rate
54:14 Closing Thoughts
Music ID B4AJC8AUDLMMIFEB
Across huge swathes of the global economy, clean solutions are already cheaper than their fossil alternatives, and so a carbon price isn’t needed. But in other sections of the economy, the costs of green tech are higher, and so carbon pricing will be needed to make them cost competitive. But what should that price be, and how can it be successfully implemented?
This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich is joined by Professor Ross Garnaut, a towering figure in the debate about how to implement carbon pricing, and founder of the Superpower Institute. Having advised successive Australian governments on climate policy since 2007, Ross makes the case for how Australia can export green iron, ammonia, and carbon-based fuels to industrialised economies that don't have the land or renewable resources to decarbonise on their own.
They discuss the politics behind Australia's stop-start carbon pricing, whether green hydrogen can ever get cheap enough to make the Superpower vision work, and how First Nations communities are shaping decisions about the land use. They also explore the tension between protectionism and security concerns over Chinese supply chains, and whether China's undervalued currency is holding back global competitiveness.
Topics covered in this episode:
• Australian climate policy under different Prime Ministers
• Australia as a low-carbon superpower
• Exporting molecules vs exporting electricity
• First Nations involvement in land use
• The green hydrogen cost debate
• Protectionism vs. security concerns
• Pinning down an actual carbon price
• Trade imbalances and exchange rates
Leadership Circle:
Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live.
Links:
• Watch our full Deep Dive Australia Series: youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc8cNKXCII70&si=GmXz-zQe3yK42V3o
• Ross Garnaut’s bio: https://www.rossgarnaut.com.au/
• Malcolm Turnbull on Cleaning Up: youtube.com/watch?v=t9CUGRHCswU
• Tony Abbott on Cleaning Up: youtube.com/watch?v=_39HmAgq9RY
• The Superpower Institute: https://www.superpowerinstitute.com.au/
• The SuperPower Institute reports: https://www.superpowerinstitute.com.au/work?type=report
• Superpower: Australia's Low-Carbon Opportunity by Ross Garnaut: https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/superpower
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
02:48 Ross Garnaut's Climate Journey
11:41 The Superpower Thesis
21:31 Ammonia, Land & Biocarbon
32:24 The Green Hydrogen Debate
37:15 Wind Costs & Supply Chains
42:01 Carbon Pricing: How High?
49:04 China's Exchange Rate
54:14 Closing Thoughts
Music ID B4AJC8AUDLMMIFEB
