Malcolm Ocean
if youre stuck in someones dream, getting indignant probably wont help
updated
MHC • Model of Hierarchical Complexity • en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_of_hierarchical_complexity
Andrew Cutler:
• my remix of his work: malcolmocean.com/2023/07/superego-conflict-and-evolution
• great article: vectorsofmind.com/p/the-snake-cult-of-consciousness
• our convo with him: vectorsofmind.com/p/malcolm-ocean-and-michael-smith-3
Original Spin • youtube.com/watch?v=6Ykr2XLpPXE&t=5785s
Hostile telepaths problem • morphenius.substack.com/p/the-hostile-telepaths-problem
Michael and I are roommates now so we don't have as many zoom calls! A sad loss for youtube. But he was travelling and we had a short call where we threw on a recording!
• We-ness original instructions: goldencobra.org/pdf/2018/Kong%20Selke%20Vanderpool%20Edelman%20--%20The%20We-ness.pdf
• someone's write-up of the we-ship experiment that I ran (the one where we did the "goodbye for now, Malcolm") xenocognition.com/p/who-captains-the-we-ship
• A Positive Account of Property Rights: http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Property/Property.html
Divia's substack: mutualunderstanding.substack.com/p/malcolm-ocean-and-i-talk-about-collective
Divia's twitter: twitter.com/diviacaroline
Auto-generated show notes
00:00 Exploring Internal Family Systems and WeSpace
03:01 Collective Selfness and Group Dynamics
06:00 The We-Ship Experiment: Collective Consciousness
08:59 Navigating Individuality within Collectivity
11:58 Fractal Nature of Selfness in Groups
15:02 Understanding Self-Energy in Group Contexts
17:55 Projection and Responsibility in Group Dynamics
20:49 Defining Boundaries: What is Us and What is Not Us?
27:00 Navigating Relevance in Conversations
29:55 The Dynamics of Group Triggers
32:57 Exploring Collective Self and Shame
36:12 Understanding Boundaries and Ownership
39:00 Moral Layers in Property and Boundaries
41:54 The Complexity of Group Dynamics
44:58 Fairness and Communication Styles
55:58 Earning Attention and Communication Dynamics
57:03 Navigating Group Dynamics and Proactive Engagement
59:00 Establishing Boundaries in Communication
59:51 Finding Solutions in Parenting and Communication
01:00:55 The Importance of Shared Information in Conversations
01:03:05 Addressing Safety and Container Dynamics
01:03:59 Self-Sustaining Dynamics in Group Settings
01:05:55 The Role of Leadership in Group Containers
01:07:54 Exploring Collective Self and Attunement
01:10:01 Unpacking Self and Group Dynamics
01:11:57 Ego Awareness and Self-Modeling in Conversations
Original Spin, in a nutshell, is about how people get tied in knots by shame, but shame is actually a confused mislabelling of your own pain or your own problem, making you think that instead of HAVING a problem, you ARE a problem. By learning to unwind it, you can avoid a bunch of unnecessary suffering.
If you dig this video and want to learn more about Original Spin, check out
• original Original Spin video (linked to partway through where the good part starts) youtube.com/watch?v=6Ykr2XLpPXE&t=5785s
• 10min vid re Spin and feeling free: youtube.com/watch?v=baXQzPpDZwU
Find us on Twitter:
🐦 twitter.com/Malcolm_Ocean
🐦 twitter.com/this_is_silvia
🐦 twitter.com/Morphenius
(tagged concepts can be found at https://www.intertwingled.blog/)
- [[everything makes sense]] / [[everyone is always doing whatever makes the most sense to them]]
- impossible to just be stupid
- [["stupid" as "not worth bothering to reason with, negotiate with, sensemaking with"]]
- survival & thrival systems - thankful theory article: astralcodexten.com/p/triple-tragedy-and-thankful-theory
- Michael's thread on subjective science: xcancel.com/Morphenius/status/1882915301635063877
- testable claims
- "something I can afford [the consequences of]"
- (huh, what about things that ARE bigger leaps of faith? people claim these exist. I'm suspicious of them)
- arms race if you insist on "finding out" why - hostile telepaths: lesswrong.com/posts/5FAnfAStc7birapMx/the-hostile-telepaths-problem
- Law of Intelligence / Law of Life
- all life is an instantiation of a know-how of solving problems
- "trust-building process" = "doing science"
- this kind of muddle is the sign of an anti-meme
- distrust is a description of resistance
- NNTD in practice pivots on tracking distrust
- the equivalent place in what I'm doing is tracking whether there's a problem
- but they are not the same structure
For stuff on the "what problem are you solving?" etc, check out David Deutsch's work, maybe particularly his book The Fabric of Reality which is what Michael has been reading lately that inspired all the Subjective Science stuff. Link here: amzn.to/3Qu1y4U
---------
loss of innocence
political common-ground: maybe we all can agree that we don't want people to have to bear the costs of others' learning that they didn't sign up to bear
gift someone couldn't know to ask for
repetition legitimizes
whose job is this? malcolmocean.com/2023/08/whose-job-is-this
- who signed up for this?
- who pays for this?
inversion: who gets to learn from this mistake?
memetic/bio evolution: see The Secret of our Success slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/04/book-review-the-secret-of-our-success
Malcolm Collins podcast interview: open.spotify.com/episode/0g3qGRww4L9qiNsJdEJxru?si=ff89fd0ad2c14895
"war is interested in you": originally "the dialectic" (en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Leon_Trotsky)
0:00 intro, background context
3:40 can Ivan control Malcolm?
5:25 professional examples of interpersonal control
17:00 traps along the way
22:30 depression from stopping coercive motivation without already having joyful motivation
27:28 Roman use of "discipline" & "virtue"
32:40 how to measure motivational efficiency
34:15 coercion has goodhart built-in: washing the dishes 🧼🍽️
41:40 jobs you love, jobs you hate
52:30 internal conflict causes stuckness & oscillations
58:00 pre-coercive culture got outcompeted
1:02:50 aiming for a new thing that feels better
1:07:45 propaganda against your animal
1:12:00 theology: does reality punish/coerce you?
1:16:20 early history of science
1:19:50 limits of cultural propaganda
1:22:00 cultural knowledge greater than individual secret of our success
1:27:40 overcoordinated overshoulded
1:30:00 cultural transition phases
1:35:30 research agenda: the shift
1:37:45 law of conservation of coercion?
1:41:30 our equiv of "drosophilia" for testing
Background links:
- Ivan's: nothinghuman.substack.com/p/searching-for-the-root-of-the-tree
- mine: malcolmocean.com/2022/12/coercion-in-terms-of-scarcity-pct
- Ch18 of B:CP PCT book: docs.google.com/document/d/1iXQJ3Tc36RNgser2a1E27bW3G3qrWzJ3QhRCMAEMHDM/edit
Links/resources mentioned:
Trinley Goldenberg re non-coercive motivation: https://x.com/mattgoldenberg/status/1819122821273989454
Virginia Valian's "Learning to Work": tinyurl.com/vv-l2w
essay from A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry on Roman Virtues: https://acoup.blog/2024/03/29/fireside-friday-march-29-2024-on-roman-values/
coercion has goodhart built-in
compromise - halfway between goals, neither satisfied
Planetary scale vibe collapse: smoothbrains.net/posts/2022-08-24-planetary-scale-vibe-collapse.html
andrew cutler - cultural diffusion: vectorsofmind.com/p/evidence-for-global-cultural-diffusion
wolf's conception of the abrahamic god as that which stands in for real reality
reality doesn't punish you: palladiummag.com/2023/07/13/dont-learn-your-values-from-society
early history of science
loving cosmos - see this video on the supercooperation cluster: youtu.be/X6MYsKeTjKk
Secret of our Success: slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/04/book-review-the-secret-of-our-success
Richard Ngo "overcoordinated"
Jean-Paul Sartre's Existentialism is a Humanism: marxists.org/reference/archive/sartre/works/exist/sartre.htm
**"I'm free to do whatever I want"**
for understanding origins of lying/coercion, check out here: vectorsofmind.com/p/eve-theory-of-consciousness-v3
lots of models talk about a big transition from pre-coercion to coercion to post-coercion; here's one: context.org/foundation-stones
here's a piece on the current transition https://www.gameb.wiki/index.php?title=Game_B
"cybernetics or computational model of coordination that is too vague in both of our minds for us to really get at the crux of our disagreement"
research agenda: can we characterize in a clear way, why it was that the coercive pattern won out over the ancestral vibe-based pattern?
0:00 Malcolm's experimental church
8:20 M: "I don't believe in beliefs"; my "sense of things"
20:00 ish - translating from words to sense
23:30 active inference intro & initial tensions
38:00 M's concerns: "it feels dissociative"
39:00 emptiness, insight meditation, dangerous language
41:30 capgras delusion: my video on that+trust youtu.be/TX2gwG6fk5k
43:45 these theories don't say "hi" to me
48:33 Xiq: I'm trying to sense your dissonance. what values are getting stepped on?
49:46 M: beauty of shifting into first person
53:00 "the model you are": desires in terms of active inference
56:22 NNTD: everything makes sense from its own perspective
1:02:04 principle of how the cosmos unfolds: NNTD, FEP
1:03:00 can we make it more precise while keeping it in first person
1:06:00 recursive element of self-model
1:20:30 wrapping up: roles of church
my product Intend: https://intend.do/
the "intentionality manifesto": https://intend.do/intentionality
Follow Sari on Twitter: twitter.com/sariazout
The tweet she mentions: "music is a promise that you aren't listening alone" twitter.com/sariazout/status/1674577271330418689
Timeline:
0:00 intro
1:05 interactive experiment
3:39 parallax & stereopsis
9:44 are senses true?
13:50 Unflattening — amzn.to/3TjoAxN
14:29 3D→2D projections — civilizationemerging.com/higher-dimensional-thinking
16:51 a new principle of thinking
23:14 people have perspectives
26:14 co-epistemic status tags
29:41 obviousness
34:38 depth perception & synthesis
36:11 "what have you bridged?"
46:16 crazy worldviews come from others denying the obvious
49:42 "I can tell for myself" vs "I'll take your word for it" — malcolmocean.com/2023/11/i-can-tell-for-myself
52:47 communication breakdowns
53:25 the meta-protocol — malcolmocean.com/2021/11/meta-protocol-for-trust-building
54:32 the "you go first" problem
54:47 3 Steps for Empowered Dialogue
1:03:07 honoring defensiveness
1:08:26 what does it mean to take your own perspective?
1:12:58 it's all differences of perspective, not opinion
1:13:30 end of talk + Q&A
Paste clipboard manager (not a paid endorsement it's just great) — pasteapp.io
2:00 before intend: fragmented backlogs
4:26 how has using intend changed your routine/daily workflow?
6:00 that feeling at the start & end of the day
8:09 trust your morning self
10:34 weekly & monthly reviews
12:19 you don't need to already have clear goals
Humble note: neither Andrew and I are yet parents—soon tho! This is us speculating on what kinds of responses we might want to have in a particular kind of situation, not suggesting that everybody should already (ha!) know how to do this—or even that everybody would want to respond the same way.
Here are the earlier vids on Original Spin:
1: youtu.be/6Ykr2XLpPXE
2: youtu.be/Ds_18ww7XhU
3: youtu.be/x_giHvRb2hs
4: youtu.be/jzn84Dx6__o
Tweets mentioned:
1. the one about the girl and the slushie: twitter.com/darcyjae/status/1486372551316189185
2. mine, about absolving sin and showing my work: twitter.com/Malcolm_Ocean/status/1738020537958588898
This is part of a series of videos where we're thinking out loud about a new meme we're trying to craft that helps people untangle their own pain from psy-oppy narratives. They're us thinking at our own edge, not presentations for new audiences.
Here are the earlier vids on Original Spin:
1: youtu.be/6Ykr2XLpPXE
2: youtu.be/Ds_18ww7XhU
3: youtu.be/x_giHvRb2hs
This is part of a series of videos where we're thinking out loud about a new meme we're trying to craft that helps people untangle their own pain from psy-oppy narratives. They're us thinking at our own edge, not presentations for new audiences.
Here are the earlier vids on Original Spin:
1: youtu.be/6Ykr2XLpPXE
2: youtu.be/Ds_18ww7XhU
this video, and that one, are more he and I jamming out loud, than trying to present ideas to the unfamiliar
with @Morphenius
also there's like 20s of nothing in particular right around 30mins in. I tried to edit it out but the video file kept breaking and it was either post as-is or not at all.
0:00:00 muddling around
1:36:25 a "from scratch" intro
(^ maybe a better start)
Below are some links that might be helpful context. The first one might be particularly vital for making sense of what we're talking about here. It sort of frames why we're talking about id/ego/superego and how those relate to memetic evolution.
⭑ "the superegos have gone crazy": malcolmocean.com/2023/07/superego-conflict-and-evolution
— Andrew Cutler's Snake Cult article: vectorsofmind.com/p/the-snake-cult-of-consciousness
— David Deutsch's Evolution of Culture essay: takingchildrenseriously.com/the-evolution-of-culture
— "bad is good, actually" psy-op: twitter.com/Malcolm_Ocean/status/1728855933412049308
— article about haka and human superorganisms: meltingasphalt.com/music-in-human-evolution
— PCT/Perceptual Control Theory: docs.google.com/presentation/d/e/2PACX-1vQeH3WQyIkcjZS_aN8-n9mr3ANWIzrUQGDHqjGUDIkeZsjx4hqqj1tD8dVORMbiM0PDR_uOgAOK3a6T/pub?start=false&loop=false&delayms=5000&slide=id.g951aeabe76_0_0
— "Adaptive Entropy": lesswrong.com/posts/xEHy9oivifjgFbnvc/slack-matters-more-than-any-outcome
— "gnosis": malcolmocean.com/2023/11/i-can-tell-for-myself
— Gen3 OS vid link: youtube.com/watch?v=NeN34rquMhY
^ this last link may highlight a lot of the context of why this all matters to Michael and me, and what our vision is of what's possible
If you want to read the notes I took during the convo, they're here:
https://www.intertwingled.blog/#/app/malcolmocean/page/QJ5Jw1LAk
— dream mashups: youtu.be/vyMexLN0A28
— self-validation: youtu.be/0bOy-3omSS0
— memetic OS upgrade: youtu.be/NeN34rquMhY
— (dis)trust & ego: youtu.be/eaMg9_pav-o
— Non-Naive Trust Dance (1.5h on the Stoa): youtu.be/JAxq96Fc0lE
Related blog posts:
— NNTD name explained: malcolmocean.com/2021/09/non-naive-trust-dance-why-the-name
— the meta-protocol: malcolmocean.com/2021/11/meta-protocol-for-trust-building
— on coercion & PCT: malcolmocean.com/2022/12/coercion-in-terms-of-scarcity-pct
— NNTD onepager: malcolmocean.com/2023/06/explain-nntd-right-fckn-now
- vid with Aneesh that we're riffing on: youtu.be/X6MYsKeTjKk
- meta-protocol quine tweet: twitter.com/Malcolm_Ocean/status/1577195956298473477
- Polis: Input crowd, output meaning: https://pol.is
- Convergent Facilitation: convergentfacilitation.org
- SimPol (Simultaneous Policy) - I liked this podcast interview: jimruttshow.com/john-bunzl
- "common currencies & separate ends":
- "all techniques have the same goal, which is to cast a Summon Sapience spell": lesswrong.com/posts/tahymCqG9jCJtiy4F/sapient-algorithms
- Alexander Technique - recent vid by me: youtu.be/yj0C0dhJrEY
- David Chapman article "Non-statement ain't-framework": https://vividness.live/non-statement
- I can tell for myself: malcolmocean.com/2023/11/i-can-tell-for-myself
- gnosis & hodological maps tweet: twitter.com/chaosprime/status/1271895702499721217
- hypercube poem: we couldn't find it! comment below if you know
- "you can't trust what you can't trust" - short video by me on this: youtu.be/uanL3Pzkcx0
- this blog post of mine very relevant to this whole thing: malcolmocean.com/2022/10/open-letter-convening-an-ontario-meta-protocol-jam
- prayer - desire for deliverance from suffering is often available even in very contracted states (except eg blind terror)
- short vid of Jordan Hall talking about the meta-protocol: youtube.com/watch?v=Y8obOMa7Hqo
- Malcolm & Romeo discuss [[thinking that rejects other thinking]] and many related topics: youtu.be/v3-4RxWlx2A
Videos:
Peter Nobes with Tasshin: youtu.be/_O0jHEHb0As
Michael Ashcroft:
youtu.be/MXM1h55q5zI
The template: docs.google.com/presentation/d/10mPjQLrm2Kiu0YelwVghm4V7_DXDnQvNXfcBIiEEVso/edit?usp=drivesdk
...but seriously unless you have a printer super handy just start with a sharpie on a blank sheet! Don't let "doing it right" get in the way of doing it at all!
I made an app for becoming more intentional: https://intend.do/?yt=pt
https://intend.do
Upcoming workshops, if you want support orienting to decisions like this:
https://intend.do/event/gci?yt=impossible
Fabricated options article: lesswrong.com/posts/gNodQGNoPDjztasbh/lies-damn-lies-and-fabricated-options
check out the app: https://intend.do/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=announce
comment below if you have questions on intentionality or topics you'd like to hear me explore, and I'll make a new vid responding!
& message to Rob that led to this call: twitter.com/SarahAMcManus/status/1665194783239999490
the existing Intentionality manifesto I mention: https://intend.do/intentionality
check out the GCI workshop itself: https://intend.do/event/gci?yt=msr
Rob's Burrito-Based Pricing™: ungated.thrivecart.com/burrito
My friend George was also present and chimes in at a few points.
youtu.be/Tc0j2KDT7ho
Two posts by Sasha Chapin
1. one about an experience of his that feels similar to what I'm going through although he frames it as a shift from "out there" to "in here" and mine feels in some ways the opposite: sashachapin.substack.com/p/when-my-existence-inverted-instantly
2. A Non-Definitive Non-Guide to Non-Duality: sashachapin.substack.com/p/a-non-definitive-non-guide-to-non
My friend Romeo Stevens: twitter.com/RomeoStevens76
A Cartoon Epistemology (a short illustrated exploration of where perception is located)
http://slehar.com/wwwRel//cartoonepist/cartoonepist.html
One of the main recent meditations I've been doing:
youtube.com/watch?v=GmVo9LxJA3o
The "We" exercise I did was based on this pdf: http://www.goldencobra.org/pdf/2018/Kong%20Selke%20Vanderpool%20Edelman%20--%20The%20We-ness.pdf
A lot of this shift has involved experiencing expanded awareness, including being way more aware of space and the space behind me rather than just what I'm looking at, which rhymes with my friend Michael Ashcroft's stuff, eg here: youtube.com/watch?v=OdgbXWKg7Ps
pt2: youtu.be/k1pQRLXaXI4
Brother Spirit on Twitter: twitter.com/brspirituality
pt1: youtu.be/EYYTQGWbtvE
Brother Spirit on Twitter: twitter.com/brspirituality
The essence of NNTD: you can't trust what you can't trust youtube.com/watch?v=uanL3Pzkcx0
The specific video I was riffing on was "Identify the moon, not the finger"
The Complice app: complice.co
Article about intentionality: complice.co/intentionality
"PCT" refers to Perceptual Control Theory
Here's an earlier video I made directed to Michael Ashcroft, riffing on some PCT-related ideas youtu.be/aLn6UeIYjYM
And here's an ebook that is a great intro to PCT: drive.google.com/file/d/17X2Zdv5q4Mq4rm0BtXpnWftn88E8uLkG/view?usp=sharing
twitter.com/@FluidityAudio
fluidity.libsyn.com
Inspired by this tweet: twitter.com/Malcolm_Ocean/status/1628677805293846529
A few relevant links:
Matt's Fluidity Forum event: fluidityforum.org
My post about Fractal Home: malcolmocean.com/2021/10/fractal-home
My NNTD framework: malcolmocean.com/2021/09/non-naive-trust-dance-why-the-name
Michael's post on adaptive entropy: lesswrong.com/posts/xEHy9oivifjgFbnvc/slack-matters-more-than-any-outcome
One tip for this is to go straight for what you're looking for with a search.
Relevant links:
- what kinds of distractions are good for your focus? complice.co/articles/centering-distractions-are-good-for-focus
- how to start on the most important thing each day? complice.co/articles/how-to-start-on-the-most-important-thing-first
Read more about intentionality: complice.co/intentionality
Check out Complice—the todo list that never goes stale, and keeps you in touch with your long-term goals every day: complice.co
Where I tweeted my plan: twitter.com/Malcolm_Ocean/status/1610809806243377154
More on learner mindset: youtube.com/watch?v=Ub4_krqEW4U
Check out Complice—the todo list that never goes stale, and keeps you in touch with your long-term goals every day: complice.co
Upcoming GCIs: complice.co/event/gci?yt=chrFull
Check out Complice—the todo list that never goes stale, and keeps you in touch with your long-term goals every day: complice.co


