Uploaded December 2025 | Updated September 2026, 1 week ago
César Hidalgo has spent years trying to answer a deceptively simple question: What is knowledge, and why is it so hard to move around?
We all have this intuition that knowledge is just... information. Write it down in a book, upload it to GitHub, train an AI on it—done. But César argues that's completely wrong. Knowledge isn't a thing you can copy and paste. It's more like a living organism that needs the right environment, the right people, and constant exercise to survive.
Guest: César Hidalgo, Director of the Center for Collective Learning
The Big Ideas
1. Knowledge Follows Laws (Like Physics)
Just as temperature and gravity follow predictable rules, so does knowledge. César outlines three laws:
- Time: How knowledge grows (fast at first, then it plateaus)
- Space: How knowledge spreads (it's way harder than you think)
- Value: How we can measure a country's "knowledge potential"
2. You Can't Download Expertise
The most memorable stories in this conversation prove that knowledge is embodied—it lives in people, teams, and organizations, not in manuals.
3. Why Big Companies Fail to Adapt
César explains "architectural innovation"—the idea that small changes (like shipping books directly to customers) can require a completely different organizational structure.
4. The "Infinite Alphabet" of Economies
Every skill, every industry, every capability is like a letter in an alphabet. César's research shows you can actually predict which countries will grow by counting their "letters."
If you think AI can just "copy" human knowledge, or that development is just about throwing money at poor countries, or that writing things down preserves them forever—this conversation will change your mind. Knowledge is fragile, specific, and collective. It decays fast if you don't use it.
The Infinite Alphabet [César A. Hidalgo]
penguin.co.uk/books/458054/the-infinite-alphabet-by-hidalgo-cesar-a/9780241655672
https://x.com/cesifoti
Rescript link.
app.rescript.info/public/share/eaBHbEo9xamwbwpxzcVVm4NQjMh7lsOQKeWwNxmw0JQ
---
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 The Three Laws of Knowledge
00:02:28 Rival vs. Non-Rival: The Economics of Ideas
00:05:43 Why You Can't Just 'Download' Knowledge
00:08:11 The Detective Novel Analogy
00:11:54 Collective Learning & Organizational Networks
00:16:27 Architectural Innovation: Amazon vs. Barnes & Noble
00:19:15 The First Law: Learning Curves
00:23:05 The Samuel Slater Story: Treason & Memory
00:28:31 Physics of Knowledge: Joule's Cannon
00:32:33 Extensive vs. Intensive Properties
00:35:45 Knowledge Decay: Ise Temple & Polaroid
00:41:20 Absorptive Capacity: Sony & Donetsk
00:47:08 Disruptive Innovation & S-Curves
00:51:23 Team Size & The Cost of Innovation
00:57:13 Geography of Knowledge: Vespa's Origin
01:04:34 Migration, Diversity & 'Planet China'
01:12:02 Institutions vs. Knowledge: The China Story
01:21:27 Economic Complexity & The Infinite Alphabet
01:32:27 Do LLMs Have Knowledge?
---
REFERENCES:
Book:
[00:47:45] The Innovator's Dilemma (Christensen)
amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Revolutionary-Change-Business/dp/0062060244
[00:55:15] Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned
amazon.com/dp/3319155237
[01:35:00] Why Information Grows
amazon.com/dp/0465048994
Paper:
[00:03:15] Endogenous Technological Change (Romer, 1990)
https://web.stanford.edu/~klenow/Romer_1990.pdf
[00:03:30] A Model of Growth Through Creative Destruction (Aghion & Howitt, 1992)
https://dash.harvard.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/7312037d-2b2d-6bd4-e053-0100007fdf3b/content
[00:14:55] Organizational Learning: From Experience to Knowledge (Argote & Miron-Spektor, 2011)
researchgate.net/publication/228754233_Organizational_Learning_From_Experience_to_Knowledge
[00:17:05] Architectural Innovation (Henderson & Clark, 1990)
researchgate.net/publication/200465578_Architectural_Innovation_The_Reconfiguration_of_Existing_Product_Technologies_and_the_Failure_of_Established_Firms
[00:19:45] The Learning Curve Equation (Thurstone, 1916)
dn790007.ca.archive.org/0/items/learningcurveequ00thurrich/learningcurveequ00thurrich.pdf
[00:21:30] Factors Affecting the Cost of Airplanes (Wright, 1936)
https://pdodds.w3.uvm.edu/research/papers/others/1936/wright1936a.pdf
[00:52:45] Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? (Bloom et al.)
https://web.stanford.edu/~chadj/IdeaPF.pdf
[01:33:00] LLMs/ Emergence
arxiv.org/abs/2506.11135
Person:
[00:25:30] Samuel Slater
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater
[00:42:05] Masaru Ibuka (Sony)
sony.com/en/SonyInfo/CorporateInfo/History/SonyHistory/1-02.html
[01:01:45] Corradino D'Ascanio
link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-09858-6_38#:~:text=6%20Conclusions,%2C%20comfort%2C%20and%20technical%20performance.
[01:16:00] Chen Chunxian
thebhc.org/sites/default/files/tzeng.pdf
Event/Place:
César Hidalgo has spent years trying to answer a deceptively simple question: What is knowledge, and why is it so hard to move around?
We all have this intuition that knowledge is just... information. Write it down in a book, upload it to GitHub, train an AI on it—done. But César argues that's completely wrong. Knowledge isn't a thing you can copy and paste. It's more like a living organism that needs the right environment, the right people, and constant exercise to survive.
Guest: César Hidalgo, Director of the Center for Collective Learning
The Big Ideas
1. Knowledge Follows Laws (Like Physics)
Just as temperature and gravity follow predictable rules, so does knowledge. César outlines three laws:
- Time: How knowledge grows (fast at first, then it plateaus)
- Space: How knowledge spreads (it's way harder than you think)
- Value: How we can measure a country's "knowledge potential"
2. You Can't Download Expertise
The most memorable stories in this conversation prove that knowledge is embodied—it lives in people, teams, and organizations, not in manuals.
3. Why Big Companies Fail to Adapt
César explains "architectural innovation"—the idea that small changes (like shipping books directly to customers) can require a completely different organizational structure.
4. The "Infinite Alphabet" of Economies
Every skill, every industry, every capability is like a letter in an alphabet. César's research shows you can actually predict which countries will grow by counting their "letters."
If you think AI can just "copy" human knowledge, or that development is just about throwing money at poor countries, or that writing things down preserves them forever—this conversation will change your mind. Knowledge is fragile, specific, and collective. It decays fast if you don't use it.
The Infinite Alphabet [César A. Hidalgo]
penguin.co.uk/books/458054/the-infinite-alphabet-by-hidalgo-cesar-a/9780241655672
https://x.com/cesifoti
Rescript link.
app.rescript.info/public/share/eaBHbEo9xamwbwpxzcVVm4NQjMh7lsOQKeWwNxmw0JQ
---
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 The Three Laws of Knowledge
00:02:28 Rival vs. Non-Rival: The Economics of Ideas
00:05:43 Why You Can't Just 'Download' Knowledge
00:08:11 The Detective Novel Analogy
00:11:54 Collective Learning & Organizational Networks
00:16:27 Architectural Innovation: Amazon vs. Barnes & Noble
00:19:15 The First Law: Learning Curves
00:23:05 The Samuel Slater Story: Treason & Memory
00:28:31 Physics of Knowledge: Joule's Cannon
00:32:33 Extensive vs. Intensive Properties
00:35:45 Knowledge Decay: Ise Temple & Polaroid
00:41:20 Absorptive Capacity: Sony & Donetsk
00:47:08 Disruptive Innovation & S-Curves
00:51:23 Team Size & The Cost of Innovation
00:57:13 Geography of Knowledge: Vespa's Origin
01:04:34 Migration, Diversity & 'Planet China'
01:12:02 Institutions vs. Knowledge: The China Story
01:21:27 Economic Complexity & The Infinite Alphabet
01:32:27 Do LLMs Have Knowledge?
---
REFERENCES:
Book:
[00:47:45] The Innovator's Dilemma (Christensen)
amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Revolutionary-Change-Business/dp/0062060244
[00:55:15] Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned
amazon.com/dp/3319155237
[01:35:00] Why Information Grows
amazon.com/dp/0465048994
Paper:
[00:03:15] Endogenous Technological Change (Romer, 1990)
https://web.stanford.edu/~klenow/Romer_1990.pdf
[00:03:30] A Model of Growth Through Creative Destruction (Aghion & Howitt, 1992)
https://dash.harvard.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/7312037d-2b2d-6bd4-e053-0100007fdf3b/content
[00:14:55] Organizational Learning: From Experience to Knowledge (Argote & Miron-Spektor, 2011)
researchgate.net/publication/228754233_Organizational_Learning_From_Experience_to_Knowledge
[00:17:05] Architectural Innovation (Henderson & Clark, 1990)
researchgate.net/publication/200465578_Architectural_Innovation_The_Reconfiguration_of_Existing_Product_Technologies_and_the_Failure_of_Established_Firms
[00:19:45] The Learning Curve Equation (Thurstone, 1916)
dn790007.ca.archive.org/0/items/learningcurveequ00thurrich/learningcurveequ00thurrich.pdf
[00:21:30] Factors Affecting the Cost of Airplanes (Wright, 1936)
https://pdodds.w3.uvm.edu/research/papers/others/1936/wright1936a.pdf
[00:52:45] Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? (Bloom et al.)
https://web.stanford.edu/~chadj/IdeaPF.pdf
[01:33:00] LLMs/ Emergence
arxiv.org/abs/2506.11135
Person:
[00:25:30] Samuel Slater
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater
[00:42:05] Masaru Ibuka (Sony)
sony.com/en/SonyInfo/CorporateInfo/History/SonyHistory/1-02.html
[01:01:45] Corradino D'Ascanio
link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-09858-6_38#:~:text=6%20Conclusions,%2C%20comfort%2C%20and%20technical%20performance.
[01:16:00] Chen Chunxian
thebhc.org/sites/default/files/tzeng.pdf
Event/Place:
![François Chollet on OpenAI o-models and ARC
SPONSOR MESSAGES:
***
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https://centml.ai/pricing/
Francois Chollet joins Tim Scarfe to discuss the outcomes of the 2024 ARC-AGI Prize, his departure from Google to start a new research lab focused on program synthesis, and why he believes current frontier models including o1 still cannot genuinely adapt to novelty.
Chollet breaks down the two paradigms that dominated the competition: deep learning-guided program synthesis (induction) and test-time training with direct prediction (transduction). Both approaches reached roughly 55% accuracy, but the striking finding is that solutions using $10 of compute matched those using $10,000. Compute is a multiplier for ideas, not a replacement for them.
The conversation goes deep into Clement Bonnets latent program search approach, Kevin Elliss hybrid induction-transduction strategy, and the OmniArc framework that trains a single model across multiple ARC-related tasks. Chollet explains why he sees program graphs rather than token-by-token code generation as the more promising architecture for program synthesis.
On the philosophical side, Chollet distinguishes two forms of reasoning memorized pattern application versus genuine on-the-fly recombination of cognitive building blocks. He argues that consciousness might emerge as a self-consistency mechanism needed for iterative reasoning, and that the question can LLMs reason? is less interesting than can they adapt to novelty?
Chollet also reveals his plans for ARC-2, discusses the logarithmic relationship between compute and accuracy that his data shows, and argues that the future of programming is democratization: anyone should be able to describe what they want automated, without writing code.
REFERENCES:
person:
[00:00:00] Francois Chollet
https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=VfYhf2wAAAAJ
[00:36:40] Kevin Ellis - Combining Induction and Transduction
https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=5YGiV0YAAAAJ
[00:45:00] Clement Bonnet - Latent Program Networks
https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=UQ3IbeoAAAAJ
tool:
[00:00:53] Keras
https://keras.io/
[00:11:00] ARC-AGI Prize
https://arcprize.org/
[00:11:00] ARC-AGI Dataset
https://github.com/fchollet/ARC-AGI
paper:
[00:16:03] On the Measure of Intelligence
https://arxiv.org/abs/1911.01547
[01:16:40] o3 ARC Breakthrough
https://arcprize.org/blog/oai-o3-pub-breakthrough
LINKS:
Full Transcript: https://app.rescript.info/share/44fe8a0aab7235883da9cb4744848cfe
Download PDF transcript: https://app.rescript.info/api/public/sessions/7b446884aa257347/pdf François Chollet on OpenAI o-models and ARC](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/w9WE1aOPjHc/mqdefault.jpg)




![YUDKOWSKY + WOLFRAM ON AI RISK.
Eliezer Yudkowsky and Stephen Wolfram discuss artificial intelligence and its potential existen‑
tial risks. They traversed fundamental questions about AI safety, consciousness, computational irreducibility, and the nature of intelligence.
The discourse centered on Yudkowsky’s argument that advanced AI systems pose an existential threat to humanity, primarily due to the challenge of alignment and the potential for emergent goals that diverge from human values. Wolfram, while acknowledging potential risks, approached the topic from a his signature measured perspective, emphasizing the importance of understanding computational systems’ fundamental nature and questioning whether AI systems would necessarily develop the kind of goal‑directed behavior Yudkowsky fears.
SHOWNOTES (transcription, references, summary, best quotes etc):
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/3st8dts2ba7yob161dchd/EliezerWolfram.pdf?rlkey=b6va5j8upgqwl9s2muc924vtt&st=vemwqx7a&dl=0
***
MLST IS SPONSORED BY TUFA AI LABS!
The current winners of the ARC challenge, MindsAI are part of Tufa AI Labs. They are hiring ML engineers. Are you interested?! Please goto https://tufalabs.ai/
***
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliezer_Yudkowsky
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Wolfram
TOC:
1. Foundational AI Concepts and Risks
[00:00:00] 1.1 AI Optimization and System Capabilities Debate
[00:06:46] 1.2 Computational Irreducibility and Intelligence Limitations
[00:20:09] 1.3 Existential Risk and Species Succession
[00:23:28] 1.4 Consciousness and Value Preservation in AI Systems
2. Ethics and Philosophy in AI
[00:33:24] 2.1 Moral Value of Human Consciousness vs. Computation
[00:36:30] 2.2 Ethics and Moral Philosophy Debate
[00:39:58] 2.3 Existential Risks and Digital Immortality
[00:43:30] 2.4 Consciousness and Personal Identity in Brain Emulation
3. Truth and Logic in AI Systems
[00:54:39] 3.1 AI Persuasion Ethics and Truth
[01:01:48] 3.2 Mathematical Truth and Logic in AI Systems
[01:11:29] 3.3 Universal Truth vs Personal Interpretation in Ethics and Mathematics
[01:14:43] 3.4 Quantum Mechanics and Fundamental Reality Debate
4. AI Capabilities and Constraints
[01:21:21] 4.1 AI Perception and Physical Laws
[01:28:33] 4.2 AI Capabilities and Computational Constraints
[01:34:59] 4.3 AI Motivation and Anthropomorphization Debate
[01:38:09] 4.4 Prediction vs Agency in AI Systems
5. AI System Architecture and Behavior
[01:44:47] 5.1 Computational Irreducibility and Probabilistic Prediction
[01:48:10] 5.2 Teleological vs Mechanistic Explanations of AI Behavior
[02:09:41] 5.3 Machine Learning as Assembly of Computational Components
[02:29:52] 5.4 AI Safety and Predictability in Complex Systems
6. Goal Optimization and Alignment
[02:50:30] 6.1 Goal Specification and Optimization Challenges in AI Systems
[02:58:31] 6.2 Intelligence, Computation, and Goal-Directed Behavior
[03:02:18] 6.3 Optimization Goals and Human Existential Risk
[03:08:49] 6.4 Emergent Goals and AI Alignment Challenges
7. AI Evolution and Risk Assessment
[03:19:44] 7.1 Inner Optimization and Mesa-Optimization Theory
[03:34:00] 7.2 Dynamic AI Goals and Extinction Risk Debate
[03:56:05] 7.3 AI Risk and Biological System Analogies
[04:09:37] 7.4 Expert Risk Assessments and Optimism vs Reality
8. Future Implications and Economics
[04:13:01] 8.1 Economic and Proliferation Considerations YUDKOWSKY + WOLFRAM ON AI RISK.](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xjH2B_sE_RQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![Do you think that ChatGPT can reason? [Prof. Subbarao Kambhampati]
Prof. Subbarao Kambhampati argues that while LLMs are impressive and useful tools, especially for creative tasks, they have fundamental limitations in logical reasoning and cannot provide guarantees about the correctness of their outputs. He advocates for hybrid approaches that combine LLMs with external verification systems.
MLST is sponsored by Brave:
The Brave Search API covers over 20 billion webpages, built from scratch without Big Tech biases or the recent extortionate price hikes on search API access. Perfect for AI model training and retrieval augmentated generation. Try it now - get 2,000 free queries monthly at http://brave.com/api.
This is 2/13 of our #ICML2024 series
TOC
[00:00:00] Intro
[00:02:06] Bio
[00:03:02] LLMs are n-gram models on steroids
[00:07:26] Is natural language a formal language?
[00:08:34] Natural language is formal?
[00:11:01] Do LLMs reason?
[00:19:13] Definition of reasoning
[00:31:40] Creativity in reasoning
[00:50:27] Chollets ARC challenge
[01:01:31] Can we reason without verification?
[01:10:00] LLMs cant solve some tasks
[01:19:07] LLM Modulo framework
[01:29:26] Future trends of architecture
[01:34:48] Future research directions
Pod: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/machinelearningstreettalk/episodes/Prof Subbarao-Kambhampati LLMs-dont-reason they-memorize-ICML2024-213-e2mjcse
Subbarao Kambhampati:
https://x.com/rao2z
Interviewer: Dr. Tim Scarfe
Refs:
Can LLMs Really Reason and Plan?
https://cacm.acm.org/blogcacm/can-llms-really-reason-and-plan/
On the Planning Abilities of Large Language Models : A Critical Investigation
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2305.15771
Chain of Thoughtlessness? An Analysis of CoT in Planning
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2405.04776
On the Self-Verification Limitations of Large Language Models on Reasoning and Planning Tasks
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2402.08115
LLMs Cant Plan, But Can Help Planning in LLM-Modulo Frameworks
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2402.01817
Embers of Autoregression: Understanding Large Language
Models Through the Problem They are Trained to Solve
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2309.13638
https://arxiv.org/abs/2402.04210
Task Success is not Enough
Faith and Fate: Limits of Transformers on Compositionality finetuning multiplication with four digit numbers (added after pub)
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2305.18654
Partition function (number theory) (Srinivasa Ramanujan and G.H. Hardys work)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_function_(number_theory)
Poincaré conjecture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poincar%C3%A9_conjecture
Gödels incompleteness theorems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems
ROT13 (Rotate13, rotate by 13 places)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROT13
A Mathematical Theory of Communication (C. E. SHANNON)
https://people.math.harvard.edu/~ctm/home/text/others/shannon/entropy/entropy.pdf
Sparks of AGI
https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.12712
Kambhampati thesis on speech recognition (1983)
https://rakaposhi.eas.asu.edu/rao-btech-thesis.pdf
PlanBench: An Extensible Benchmark for Evaluating Large Language Models on Planning and Reasoning about Change
https://arxiv.org/abs/2206.10498
Explainable human-AI interaction
https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-031-03767-2
Tree of Thoughts
https://arxiv.org/abs/2305.10601
On the Measure of Intelligence (ARC Challenge)
https://arxiv.org/abs/1911.01547
Getting 50% (SoTA) on ARC-AGI with GPT-4o (Ryan Greenblatt ARC solution)
https://redwoodresearch.substack.com/p/getting-50-sota-on-arc-agi-with-gpt
PROGRAMS WITH COMMON SENSE (John McCarthy) - AI should be an advice taker program
https://www.cs.cornell.edu/selman/cs672/readings/mccarthy-upd.pdf
Original chain of thought paper
https://arxiv.org/abs/2201.11903
ICAPS 2024 Keynote: Dale Schuurmans on Computing and Planning with Large Generative Models (COT)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnMqbpdHcaY
The Hardware Lottery (Hooker)
https://arxiv.org/abs/2009.06489
A Path Towards Autonomous Machine Intelligence (JEPA/LeCun)
https://openreview.net/pdf?id=BZ5a1r-kVsf
AlphaGeometry
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06747-5
FunSearch
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06924-6
Emergent Abilities of Large Language Models
https://arxiv.org/abs/2206.07682
Language models are not naysayers (Negation in LLMs)
https://arxiv.org/abs/2306.08189
The Reversal Curse: LLMs trained on A is B fail to learn B is A
https://arxiv.org/abs/2309.12288
Embracing negative results
https://openreview.net/forum?id=3RXAiU7sss Do you think that ChatGPT can reason? [Prof. Subbarao Kambhampati]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/y1WnHpedi2A/mqdefault.jpg)
![Moving Beyond Surface Statistics (Apple researcher) [Iman Mirzadeh]
Iman Mirzadeh is a machine learning research engineer at Apple and the lead author of the GSM-Symbolic paper, which exposed deep fragility in how large language models handle mathematical reasoning. In this conversation, he draws a sharp line between intelligence and achievement between what a system can score on a benchmark and what it actually understands.
The discussion starts with chess. Mirzadeh explains how grandmasters dont use engines to memorize moves; they use them to develop theory. AlphaZero discovered unprecedented strategies, but that knowledge stays trapped in the game. Humans, by contrast, extract abstract principles like control the center and transfer them to entirely different domains. That capacity for abstraction is what he thinks current AI architecturally lacks.
His critique of LLMs is structural. These systems are trained to minimize cross-entropy loss over a distribution, and by construction they cannot reason beyond what that distribution contains. Change the surface form of a problem swap names, add irrelevant clauses and performance varies wildly, even on grade-school math.
Thats the core finding of GSM-Symbolic. By generating templated variants of math word problems, Mirzadehs team showed that even frontier models exhibit large performance variance from changes that should be semantically irrelevant. The implication: what looks like reasoning is closer to sophisticated pattern matching across memorized distributions.
Mirzadeh proposes that intelligence should be measured by the slope of a systems scaling how fast it can learn novel things rather than its current benchmark position. The conversation also covers the connectionism-symbolism divide, active engagement and agency as necessary conditions for learning, and why we might need a fundamentally different vessel to reach genuine reasoning.
SPONSOR MESSAGES:
***
Tufa AI Labs is a brand new research lab in Zurich started by Benjamin Crouzier focussed on o-series style reasoning and AGI. They are hiring a Chief Engineer and ML engineers. Events in Zurich.
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Intelligence vs Achievement in AI
00:03:27 AlphaZero and Abstract Understanding in Chess
00:10:10 Language Models as Distribution Learners
00:14:47 The State of AI Research Methodology
00:24:24 Interpolation vs True Reasoning in LLMs
00:29:00 Measuring Intelligence: From Chollet to the Iman Moon Test
00:35:35 Agency, Active Learning, and World Models
00:47:15 Scaling Laws and the Connectionism-Symbolism Debate
00:58:09 GSM-Symbolic: Exposing LLM Reasoning Fragility
REFERENCES:
paper:
[00:00:55] Mastering Chess and Shogi by Self-Play with a General Reinforcement Learning Algorithm
https://arxiv.org/abs/1712.01815
[00:17:15] GSM-Symbolic: Understanding the Limitations of Mathematical Reasoning in Large Language Models
https://arxiv.org/abs/2410.05229
[00:21:20] Connectionism and Cognitive Architecture: A Critical Analysis
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/001002779090014B
[00:29:35] On the Measure of Intelligence
https://arxiv.org/abs/1911.01547
[00:33:25] On definition of intelligence
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160289624000266
[00:35:25] Defining Intelligence
https://cis.temple.edu/~wangp/papers.html
[00:43:10] Chain-of-Thought Prompting Elicits Reasoning in Large Language Models
https://arxiv.org/abs/2201.11903
[00:47:45] Scaling Laws for Neural Language Models
https://arxiv.org/abs/2001.08361
[00:55:10] Tensor Product Variable Binding and the Representation of Symbolic Structures in Connectionist Systems
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/000437029090007M
book:
[00:07:05] Game Changer: AlphaZeros Groundbreaking Chess Strategies
https://www.amazon.com/Game-Changer-AlphaZeros-Groundbreaking-Strategies/dp/9056918184
[00:37:35] How We Learn: Why Brains Learn Better Than Any Machine... for Now
https://www.amazon.com/How-We-Learn-Brains-Machine/dp/0525559884
[00:39:30] Surfaces and Essences: Analogy as the Fuel and Fire of Thinking
https://www.amazon.com/Surfaces-Essences-Analogy-Fuel-Thinking/dp/0465018475
reference:
[00:11:30] NLP Course: Language Modeling
http://lena-voita.github.io/nlp_course/language_modeling.html
[01:08:40] GSM8K: Training Verifiers to Solve Math Word Problems
https://huggingface.co/datasets/openai/gsm8k
LINKS:
Full Transcript: https://app.rescript.info/share/72689965572c7fd460954f70e26b2eaa
Download PDF transcript: https://app.rescript.info/api/public/sessions/abf4f57b59fcbbd5/pdf Moving Beyond Surface Statistics (Apple researcher) [Iman Mirzadeh]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/yQPduek-Q5s/mqdefault.jpg)

![Why AI Has a Plato Problem — Mazviita Chirimuuta
Professor Mazviita Chirimuuta joins us for a fascinating deep dive into the philosophy of neuroscience and what it really means to understand the mind.
*What can neuroscience actually tell us about how the mind works?* In this thought-provoking conversation, we explore the hidden assumptions behind computational theories of the brain, the limits of scientific abstraction, and why the question of machine consciousness might be more complicated than AI researchers assume.
Mazviita, author of *The Brain Abstracted,* brings a unique perspective shaped by her background in both neuroscience research and philosophy. She challenges us to think critically about the metaphors we use to understand cognition — from the reflex theory of the late 19th century to todays dominant view of the brain as a computer.
*Key topics explored:*
*The problem of oversimplification* — Why scientific models necessarily leave things out, and how this can sometimes lead entire fields astray. The cautionary tale of reflex theory shows how elegant explanations can blind us to biological complexity.
*Is the brain really a computer?* — Mazviita unpacks the philosophical assumptions behind computational neuroscience and asks: if we can model anything computationally, what makes brains special? The answer might challenge everything you thought you knew about AI.
*Haptic realism* — A fresh way of thinking about scientific knowledge that emphasizes interaction over passive observation. Knowledge isnt about reading the source code of the universe — its something we actively construct through engagement with the world.
*Why embodiment matters for understanding* — Can a disembodied language model truly understand? Mazviita makes a compelling case that human cognition is deeply entangled with our sensory-motor engagement and biological existence in ways that cant simply be abstracted away.
*Technology and human finitude* — Drawing on Heidegger, we discuss how the dream of transcending our physical limitations through technology might reflect a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to be a knower.
This conversation is essential viewing for anyone interested in AI, consciousness, philosophy of mind, or the future of cognitive science. Whether youre skeptical of strong AI claims or a true believer in machine consciousness, Mazviitas careful philosophical analysis will give you new tools for thinking through these profound questions.
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 The Problem of Generalizing Neuroscience
00:02:51 Abstraction vs. Idealization: The Kaleidoscope
00:05:39 Platonism in AI: Discovering or Inventing Patterns?
00:09:42 When Simplification Fails: The Reflex Theory
00:12:23 Behaviorism and the Black Box Trap
00:14:20 Haptic Realism: Knowledge Through Interaction
00:20:23 Is Nature Protean? The Myth of Converging Truth
00:23:23 The Computational Theory of Mind: A Useful Fiction?
00:27:25 Biological Constraints: Why Brains Arent Just Neural Nets
00:31:01 Agency, Distal Causes, and Dennetts Stances
00:37:13 Searles Challenge: Causal Powers and Understanding
00:41:58 Heideggers Warning & The Experiment on Children
REFERENCES:
Book:
[00:01:28] The Brain Abstracted
https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262548045/the-brain-abstracted/
[00:11:05] The Integrated Action of the Nervous System
https://www.amazon.sg/integrative-action-nervous-system/dp/9354179029
[00:18:15] The Quest for Certainty (Dewey)
https://www.amazon.com/Quest-Certainty-Relation-Knowledge-Lectures/dp/0399501916
[00:19:45] Realism for Realistic People (Chang)
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/realism-for-realistic-people/ACC93A7F03B15AA4D6F3A466E3FC5AB7
[00:38:15] The Rediscovery of the Mind (Searle)
https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262691543/the-rediscovery-of-the-mind/
[00:47:18] So Youve Been Publicly Shamed (Ronson)
https://www.amazon.com/So-Youve-Been-Publicly-Shamed/dp/1594634017
[00:50:30] Reality+ (Chalmers)
https://consc.net/reality/
Person:
[00:05:00] Francois Chollet
https://arcprize.org/
Paper:
[00:08:03] Real Patterns (Dennett)
https://ruccs.rutgers.edu/images/personal-zenon-pylyshyn/class-info/FP2012/FP2012_readings/Dennett_RealPatterns.pdf
[00:25:30] A Logical Calculus of Ideas... (1943)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02478259
[00:29:17] The Lottery Ticket Hypothesis
https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.03635
Philosophy:
[00:17:30] Transcendental Idealism (Kant)
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-transcendental-idealism/
RESCRIPT:
https://app.rescript.info/public/share/A6cZ1TY35p8ORMmYCWNBI0no9ChU3-Kx7dPXGJURvZ0
PDF Transcript:
https://app.rescript.info/api/public/sessions/0fb7767e066cf712/pdf Why AI Has a Plato Problem — Mazviita Chirimuuta](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/yq318DIwPqw/mqdefault.jpg)
