Uploaded June 2026 | Updated September 2026, 2 weeks ago
Philip Pullman once described C.S. Lewis's Narnia stories as a “filthy lie.” But is that fair? And what does the clash between these two literary giants reveal about faith, imagination, morality and meaning?
In this episode of Unbelievable, host John Nelson is joined by Christian writer and podcaster Caleb Woodbridge and science-fiction author, critic and YouTuber Damien Walter for a wide-ranging discussion on the theology of fiction, the enduring appeal of myth, and whether stories can point us towards truth.
The conversation explores Pullman's long-standing criticisms of Lewis, including the controversial "problem of Susan" in The Last Battle, Lewis's portrayal of innocence, authority and judgment, and whether Narnia promotes a harmful vision of Christianity. Along the way, they discuss Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy, liberal humanism, secular spirituality, science fiction, Star Wars, Doctor Who, the role of imagination, and the search for meaning in an age of disenchantment.
Can myths reveal something true about reality? Is Christianity simply one mythology among many, or what Lewis called a "true myth"? And why do both believers and sceptics continue to find themselves drawn to stories that point beyond the material world?
Whether you're a fan of Narnia, His Dark Materials, fantasy, science fiction, theology or philosophy, this conversation offers a thoughtful exploration of some of the deepest questions raised by fiction.
Guests:
For Caleb:
biggerinside.co.uk
youtube.com/@imaginative.discipleship
For Damien:
youtube.com/@DamienWalter
00:00 – Is Narnia a “filthy lie”?
01:00 – Meet Damien Walter: author of sci-fi narratives
03:16 – Meet Caleb Woodbridge: Growing up with C.S. Lewis and Philip Pullman
05:38 – Is Pullman secretly shaped by Christianity?
08:11 – Liberal humanism, secularism and Jesus
17:22 – Pullman’s attack on Narnia
18:03 – The “problem of Susan”
21:14 – Why Pullman keeps returning to Lewis
24:18 – Pullman’s longing for connection after God
26:39 – Star Wars, Jedi and the search for modern myth
30:24 – Lewis: are we made for another world?
37:52 – Pullman, the fall and rebellion
40:51 – Should we side with Lucifer?
45:11 – Aslan, sacrifice and moral authority
51:23 – Does The Magician’s Nephew give children a harmful message?
58:23 – Science fiction, disenchantment and “the cold equations”
1:06:08 – Heaven, new creation and the Republic of Heaven
1:15:34 – Can we find a 21st-century mythos?
Subscribe & Support
👉 Support thought-provoking conversations and help keep the show going at premierunbelievable.com/geolink/donate💡
🎧 Never miss an episode! Subscribe to the Unbelievable? podcast a www.premier.plus/unbelievable 🎙️
🔗 Get bonus content, updates, fascinating articles, and early access to new episodes - absolutely free! Join now at premierunbelievable.com 📢
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Philip Pullman once described C.S. Lewis's Narnia stories as a “filthy lie.” But is that fair? And what does the clash between these two literary giants reveal about faith, imagination, morality and meaning?
In this episode of Unbelievable, host John Nelson is joined by Christian writer and podcaster Caleb Woodbridge and science-fiction author, critic and YouTuber Damien Walter for a wide-ranging discussion on the theology of fiction, the enduring appeal of myth, and whether stories can point us towards truth.
The conversation explores Pullman's long-standing criticisms of Lewis, including the controversial "problem of Susan" in The Last Battle, Lewis's portrayal of innocence, authority and judgment, and whether Narnia promotes a harmful vision of Christianity. Along the way, they discuss Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy, liberal humanism, secular spirituality, science fiction, Star Wars, Doctor Who, the role of imagination, and the search for meaning in an age of disenchantment.
Can myths reveal something true about reality? Is Christianity simply one mythology among many, or what Lewis called a "true myth"? And why do both believers and sceptics continue to find themselves drawn to stories that point beyond the material world?
Whether you're a fan of Narnia, His Dark Materials, fantasy, science fiction, theology or philosophy, this conversation offers a thoughtful exploration of some of the deepest questions raised by fiction.
Guests:
For Caleb:
biggerinside.co.uk
youtube.com/@imaginative.discipleship
For Damien:
youtube.com/@DamienWalter
00:00 – Is Narnia a “filthy lie”?
01:00 – Meet Damien Walter: author of sci-fi narratives
03:16 – Meet Caleb Woodbridge: Growing up with C.S. Lewis and Philip Pullman
05:38 – Is Pullman secretly shaped by Christianity?
08:11 – Liberal humanism, secularism and Jesus
17:22 – Pullman’s attack on Narnia
18:03 – The “problem of Susan”
21:14 – Why Pullman keeps returning to Lewis
24:18 – Pullman’s longing for connection after God
26:39 – Star Wars, Jedi and the search for modern myth
30:24 – Lewis: are we made for another world?
37:52 – Pullman, the fall and rebellion
40:51 – Should we side with Lucifer?
45:11 – Aslan, sacrifice and moral authority
51:23 – Does The Magician’s Nephew give children a harmful message?
58:23 – Science fiction, disenchantment and “the cold equations”
1:06:08 – Heaven, new creation and the Republic of Heaven
1:15:34 – Can we find a 21st-century mythos?
Subscribe & Support
👉 Support thought-provoking conversations and help keep the show going at premierunbelievable.com/geolink/donate💡
🎧 Never miss an episode! Subscribe to the Unbelievable? podcast a www.premier.plus/unbelievable 🎙️
🔗 Get bonus content, updates, fascinating articles, and early access to new episodes - absolutely free! Join now at premierunbelievable.com 📢
Follow us
Instagram: instagram.com/premierunbelievable
Facebook: facebook.com/premierunbelievable
Tik Tok: tiktok.com/@premier.unbelievable
X: https://x.com/UnbelievableFE
