Uploaded October 2023 | Updated September 2026, 1 week ago
Dr. John Vervaeke engages in a conversation with guests Kevin Bowers and Ethan Kobayashi-Hsieh. The trio navigates the intricate interplay between creativity and wisdom, extending the discourse to themes like consilience, fittedness, and self-transcendence. Kevin Bowers passionately elucidates how creativity is not restricted to artistry but is a fundamental way of engaging with the world. Meanwhile, Ethan Kobayashi-Hsieh takes the discussion further by delving into the role of 'through lining' and identity in creative processes. Vervaeke’s erudite commentary weaves these perspectives into a broader framework, arguing that creativity and wisdom are not just interconnected but are facets of a life well-lived. Don’t miss out on this scintillating conversation that transcends traditional understanding and invites you into a deeper contemplation of creativity and wisdom.
Resources:
Ethan Kobayashi-Hsieh
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/ethan-kobayashi-hsieh-828a63240
Kevin Bowers
X: twitter.com/waltguitar?lang=en
Email: creativityasliving@gmail.com
John Vervaeke
Website: johnvervaeke.com
Patreon: patreon.com/johnvervaeke
Facebook: facebook.com/VervaekeJohn
X: twitter.com/vervaeke_john
YouTube: youtube.com/@johnvervaeke
The Vervaeke Foundation: vervaekefoundation.org
Related Voice with Vervaeke Episodes
Principles & Methods for Achieving a Flow State | Voices w/ Vervaeke | John Vervaeke & Kevin Bowers: youtu.be/iteirgNDKrg?si=GM6NV27w2JDzMmEQ
Theatre-ritual-movement ecology of practices w/ Ethan Kobayashi-Hsieh & Tamaki Kobayashi-Hsieh: youtu.be/orpqXNw3R0w?si=YgdgLWafuJzlTyd_
Building Practices to Cultivate Wisdom | John Vervaeke & Ethan Kobayashi-Hsieh | Voices w/ Vervaeke: youtu.be/mHAjg7G0wS0?si=TiUEAUKdJri0Ha7x
Books
Of Art and Wisdom: Plato's Understanding of Techne - David Roochnik: amazon.com/Art-Wisdom-Platos-Understanding-Techne/dp/0271032731/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Of+Art+and+Wisdom%3A+Plato%27s+Understanding+of+Techne&qid=1697574903&s=books&sr=1-1
A Whack on the Side of the Head: How You Can Be More Creative - Roger von Oech: amazon.com/Whack-Side-Head-More-Creative/dp/0446404667
Miscellaneous
UTOK Consilience Conference 2023: https://utok.circle.so/c/utokcon-video-library/
Kevin is hard at work with a new project called Liminal Learning. It is a philosophical and creative program that will take 16 young people into the wilderness of Canada. The aim is to use creativity to reframe the potentials of adulthood. Please visit: liminal-learning.com for dates and details.
Timecodes
00:00:00 — Dr. John Vervaeke sets the stage for the ensuing discussion on creativity and wisdom.
00:01:24 — Kevin Bowers begins his introduction and shares how creativity has significantly shaped his career.
00:03:00 — Bowers dives into how Dr. Vervaeke's work has enhanced his understanding of creativity and wisdom.
00:07:52 — Dr. Vervaeke introduces the pivotal themes of consilience and fittedness in creativity.
00:10:13 — Kevin Bowers discusses the concept of fittedness in creativity, marking a transformative stance in life.
00:17:05 — Bowers introduces the idea of authenticity as it relates to creativity and identity.
00:18:41 — Dr. Vervaeke explores the risks and rewards of self-transcendence within the context of creativity.
00:26:43 — Ethan Kobayashi-Hsieh expands on the fluid nature of the creative process.
00:30:22 — Dr. Vervaeke probes into Ethan's ideas on identity formation versus persona adoption.
00:33:40 — Vervaeke suggests that creativity can enhance our ability to evolve wisely.
00:39:15 — Vervaeke discusses the concept of faith and its intricate relationship with creativity.
00:42:20 — Dr. Vervaeke tackles the issue of people self-identifying as non-creative.
00:47:57 — Kevin Bowers dismisses the notion that creativity is exclusively for artists.
00:51:27 — Kevin advocates for a shift in perspective towards creativity as a part of nature.
00:56:27 — Kevin emphasizes that creativity is accessible and can be practiced by everyone.
01:01:03 — Dr. Vervaeke discusses the concepts of wisdom and self-deception.
01:08:00 — Dr. Vervaeke elaborates on the idea of creativity as fitting and appropriate novelty.
01:17:53 — Kevin Bowers talks about the distinct roles of the artist and the judge in the creative
process.
01:21:50 — Ethan Kobayashi-Hsieh offers a poetic conclusion on the power of observation.
Dr. John Vervaeke engages in a conversation with guests Kevin Bowers and Ethan Kobayashi-Hsieh. The trio navigates the intricate interplay between creativity and wisdom, extending the discourse to themes like consilience, fittedness, and self-transcendence. Kevin Bowers passionately elucidates how creativity is not restricted to artistry but is a fundamental way of engaging with the world. Meanwhile, Ethan Kobayashi-Hsieh takes the discussion further by delving into the role of 'through lining' and identity in creative processes. Vervaeke’s erudite commentary weaves these perspectives into a broader framework, arguing that creativity and wisdom are not just interconnected but are facets of a life well-lived. Don’t miss out on this scintillating conversation that transcends traditional understanding and invites you into a deeper contemplation of creativity and wisdom.
Resources:
Ethan Kobayashi-Hsieh
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/ethan-kobayashi-hsieh-828a63240
Kevin Bowers
X: twitter.com/waltguitar?lang=en
Email: creativityasliving@gmail.com
John Vervaeke
Website: johnvervaeke.com
Patreon: patreon.com/johnvervaeke
Facebook: facebook.com/VervaekeJohn
X: twitter.com/vervaeke_john
YouTube: youtube.com/@johnvervaeke
The Vervaeke Foundation: vervaekefoundation.org
Related Voice with Vervaeke Episodes
Principles & Methods for Achieving a Flow State | Voices w/ Vervaeke | John Vervaeke & Kevin Bowers: youtu.be/iteirgNDKrg?si=GM6NV27w2JDzMmEQ
Theatre-ritual-movement ecology of practices w/ Ethan Kobayashi-Hsieh & Tamaki Kobayashi-Hsieh: youtu.be/orpqXNw3R0w?si=YgdgLWafuJzlTyd_
Building Practices to Cultivate Wisdom | John Vervaeke & Ethan Kobayashi-Hsieh | Voices w/ Vervaeke: youtu.be/mHAjg7G0wS0?si=TiUEAUKdJri0Ha7x
Books
Of Art and Wisdom: Plato's Understanding of Techne - David Roochnik: amazon.com/Art-Wisdom-Platos-Understanding-Techne/dp/0271032731/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Of+Art+and+Wisdom%3A+Plato%27s+Understanding+of+Techne&qid=1697574903&s=books&sr=1-1
A Whack on the Side of the Head: How You Can Be More Creative - Roger von Oech: amazon.com/Whack-Side-Head-More-Creative/dp/0446404667
Miscellaneous
UTOK Consilience Conference 2023: https://utok.circle.so/c/utokcon-video-library/
Kevin is hard at work with a new project called Liminal Learning. It is a philosophical and creative program that will take 16 young people into the wilderness of Canada. The aim is to use creativity to reframe the potentials of adulthood. Please visit: liminal-learning.com for dates and details.
Timecodes
00:00:00 — Dr. John Vervaeke sets the stage for the ensuing discussion on creativity and wisdom.
00:01:24 — Kevin Bowers begins his introduction and shares how creativity has significantly shaped his career.
00:03:00 — Bowers dives into how Dr. Vervaeke's work has enhanced his understanding of creativity and wisdom.
00:07:52 — Dr. Vervaeke introduces the pivotal themes of consilience and fittedness in creativity.
00:10:13 — Kevin Bowers discusses the concept of fittedness in creativity, marking a transformative stance in life.
00:17:05 — Bowers introduces the idea of authenticity as it relates to creativity and identity.
00:18:41 — Dr. Vervaeke explores the risks and rewards of self-transcendence within the context of creativity.
00:26:43 — Ethan Kobayashi-Hsieh expands on the fluid nature of the creative process.
00:30:22 — Dr. Vervaeke probes into Ethan's ideas on identity formation versus persona adoption.
00:33:40 — Vervaeke suggests that creativity can enhance our ability to evolve wisely.
00:39:15 — Vervaeke discusses the concept of faith and its intricate relationship with creativity.
00:42:20 — Dr. Vervaeke tackles the issue of people self-identifying as non-creative.
00:47:57 — Kevin Bowers dismisses the notion that creativity is exclusively for artists.
00:51:27 — Kevin advocates for a shift in perspective towards creativity as a part of nature.
00:56:27 — Kevin emphasizes that creativity is accessible and can be practiced by everyone.
01:01:03 — Dr. Vervaeke discusses the concepts of wisdom and self-deception.
01:08:00 — Dr. Vervaeke elaborates on the idea of creativity as fitting and appropriate novelty.
01:17:53 — Kevin Bowers talks about the distinct roles of the artist and the judge in the creative
process.
01:21:50 — Ethan Kobayashi-Hsieh offers a poetic conclusion on the power of observation.
