Uploaded August 2026 | Updated September 2026, 2 weeks ago
Anne Pasternak and Michael Roth run two of America's most scrutinized cultural institutions and both have paid a personal price for refusing to stay quiet. Pasternak's home was vandalized with a banner calling her a "white supremacist Zionist." Roth invited Justice Antonin Scalia to campus knowing his own faculty would protest against him.
They answer questions like are museums and universities really under attack, or if it is only coming from a vocal fringe? Why won't Pasternak support a cultural boycott of Israel, even when it might be politically easier? Why does Roth refuse to run his public statements by his board? And what happens when you invite the person you disagree with most onto your stage?
Pasternak opens up about the fallout from October 7th and why she still believes culture must be part of the solution, not separate from it. Roth breaks down what he learned the day Scalia spent on Wesleyan's campus where he was heckled, questioned, and ultimately, according to Roth, offered proof that people can disagree well. Both agree: the real danger isn't controversy, it's institutions that stop engaging altogether.
#betterinperson #freakonomicsradio #AnnePasternak #MichaelRoth
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ABOUT BETTER IN PERSON:
Everyone has a public story. Stephen Dubner wants the rest.
On Better in Person, Dubner invites remarkable people into his home for a kind of conversation that’s hard to find: curious, free-wheeling, even profound. They talk, play, eat and drink, argue and laugh. The result? Less interview, more shared discovery.
This is how a conversation works.
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FOLLOW STEPHEN DUBNER:
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Chapters:
0:00 Are Museums and Universities Really Under Attack?
2:47 October 7, Hamas Attack
5:22 Michael Roth on October 7
7:52 Michael Roth On Inviting Scalia to Campus
10:07 Did Scalia Change Michael Roth’s Mind?
Two Institution Leaders on Surviving Boycotts, Protests & Politics | Better in Person
youtu.be/TKyOV5Kh1dA
Anne Pasternak and Michael Roth run two of America's most scrutinized cultural institutions and both have paid a personal price for refusing to stay quiet. Pasternak's home was vandalized with a banner calling her a "white supremacist Zionist." Roth invited Justice Antonin Scalia to campus knowing his own faculty would protest against him.
They answer questions like are museums and universities really under attack, or if it is only coming from a vocal fringe? Why won't Pasternak support a cultural boycott of Israel, even when it might be politically easier? Why does Roth refuse to run his public statements by his board? And what happens when you invite the person you disagree with most onto your stage?
Pasternak opens up about the fallout from October 7th and why she still believes culture must be part of the solution, not separate from it. Roth breaks down what he learned the day Scalia spent on Wesleyan's campus where he was heckled, questioned, and ultimately, according to Roth, offered proof that people can disagree well. Both agree: the real danger isn't controversy, it's institutions that stop engaging altogether.
#betterinperson #freakonomicsradio #AnnePasternak #MichaelRoth
Airs weekly on Tuesdays. Don't miss an episode! Subscribe NOW: youtube.com/channel/UCXjf7anLJA4NqUv8kPFIJWA?sub_confirmation=1
Introducing ChatGPT Work - Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new ChatGPT desktop app today at chatgpt.com
ABOUT BETTER IN PERSON:
Everyone has a public story. Stephen Dubner wants the rest.
On Better in Person, Dubner invites remarkable people into his home for a kind of conversation that’s hard to find: curious, free-wheeling, even profound. They talk, play, eat and drink, argue and laugh. The result? Less interview, more shared discovery.
This is how a conversation works.
FOLLOW BETTER IN PERSON:
Instagram: instagram.com/betterinpersontv
TikTok: tiktok.com/betterinpersontv
FOLLOW STEPHEN DUBNER:
Instagram: instagram.com/stephenjdubner
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/stephen-dubner-2a066578
Substack: stephendubner.substack.com
FOLLOW FREAKONOMICS:
Instagram: instagram.com/freakonomics
Facebook: facebook.com/freakonomics
TikTok: tiktok.com/@freakonomicsradio
Twitter: twitter.com/freakonomics
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/freakonomics-media
Threads: threads.com/@freakonomics
Chapters:
0:00 Are Museums and Universities Really Under Attack?
2:47 October 7, Hamas Attack
5:22 Michael Roth on October 7
7:52 Michael Roth On Inviting Scalia to Campus
10:07 Did Scalia Change Michael Roth’s Mind?
Two Institution Leaders on Surviving Boycotts, Protests & Politics | Better in Person
youtu.be/TKyOV5Kh1dA
