Uploaded June 2024 | Updated September 2026, 2 weeks ago
Tataya Bailey is the founder and lead trainer of Prisma Leadership, combining her law degree, multiple yoga certifications, and over two decades of facilitation experience to create a unique leadership approach rooted in integrity and connection.
Rachel Hayden is a magpie of the Liminal Web, and occasional collaborator with people like John, Gregg Henriques, and Alexander Bard. Her background includes somatics, meditative and contemplative practice, and peer-based mental health
How can we heal and transform ourselves through embodied practices and the relational field? In this episode of Voices with Vervaeke, Tataya Bailey and Rachel Hayden join John Vervaeke to explore the transformative power of relational practices on personal growth and healing. They delve into the balance between structure and spontaneity, discuss handling trauma, and emphasize the significance of attention and attunement in fostering authentic connections. This episode highlights the beauty of human connection and the endless possibilities for transformation.
Support John's groundbreaking work and gain exclusive access to live Q&A sessions, early video releases, and more by joining our Patreon community! patreon.com/johnvervaeke
—
"I discovered capacities in me that I didn't even know I had." - Tataya Bailey [00:06:30]
"The experiences ranged from incredibly profound and bequeathing of a new dharma for me, all the way to working through shadow stuff, having alternate childhood experiences, and working through archetypal symbolism and tribal imagery between people. It was all like welcome there, and it was all material for that relationality, which I found so beautiful and so accessible to me." - Rachel Hayden [00:12:00]
—
00:00 Introduction: Exploring Relational Practices
08:35 Rachel’s Prisma Experience: Embracing Vulnerability and Transformation
13:45 The Structure and Values of Prisma: Balancing Spontaneity and Containment
21:10 How Prisma Unlocks Relational Potential: Recovering Lost Parts and Deepening Connection
40:05 Attention and Attunement: Harmonizing Individuation and Participation
43:50 The Musicality of Relational Practices: The Dance of Metaphors and Sacred Rituals
50:50 Navigating Trauma and Safety in Relational Work
01:00:00 Embracing Discomfort: The Journey from Propositional to Participatory Connection
01:04:50 Re-exaptation and the Imaginal: The Role of Aporia in Transformative Practices
01:12:10 Final Thoughts and Future Aspirations
—
Become a part of The Vervaeke Foundation's mission to promote the scientifically rigorous pursuit of wisdom and create a lasting impact on the world. vervaekefoundation.org
Join Awaken to Meaning to explore practices that enhance your virtues and foster deeper connections with reality and relationships. awakentomeaning.com
—
Ideas, Authors, and Works Mentioned in this Episode
Alanja Forsberg - Avalon Community
Alexander Bard
Seth Allison - IFS
James Carse - Infinite Game
Andrew Huberman
Kerry Ressler
Robert Kegan
—
Follow John Vervaeke
johnvervaeke.com
twitter.com/vervaeke_john
youtube.com/@johnvervaeke
patreon.com/johnvervaeke
Follow Tataya Bailey
prismaleadership.com
yogawithtataya.com
instagram.com/prisma.leadership
linkedin.com/in/tataya-bailey-9a7249171
—
Thank you for watching!
Tataya Bailey is the founder and lead trainer of Prisma Leadership, combining her law degree, multiple yoga certifications, and over two decades of facilitation experience to create a unique leadership approach rooted in integrity and connection.
Rachel Hayden is a magpie of the Liminal Web, and occasional collaborator with people like John, Gregg Henriques, and Alexander Bard. Her background includes somatics, meditative and contemplative practice, and peer-based mental health
How can we heal and transform ourselves through embodied practices and the relational field? In this episode of Voices with Vervaeke, Tataya Bailey and Rachel Hayden join John Vervaeke to explore the transformative power of relational practices on personal growth and healing. They delve into the balance between structure and spontaneity, discuss handling trauma, and emphasize the significance of attention and attunement in fostering authentic connections. This episode highlights the beauty of human connection and the endless possibilities for transformation.
Support John's groundbreaking work and gain exclusive access to live Q&A sessions, early video releases, and more by joining our Patreon community! patreon.com/johnvervaeke
—
"I discovered capacities in me that I didn't even know I had." - Tataya Bailey [00:06:30]
"The experiences ranged from incredibly profound and bequeathing of a new dharma for me, all the way to working through shadow stuff, having alternate childhood experiences, and working through archetypal symbolism and tribal imagery between people. It was all like welcome there, and it was all material for that relationality, which I found so beautiful and so accessible to me." - Rachel Hayden [00:12:00]
—
00:00 Introduction: Exploring Relational Practices
08:35 Rachel’s Prisma Experience: Embracing Vulnerability and Transformation
13:45 The Structure and Values of Prisma: Balancing Spontaneity and Containment
21:10 How Prisma Unlocks Relational Potential: Recovering Lost Parts and Deepening Connection
40:05 Attention and Attunement: Harmonizing Individuation and Participation
43:50 The Musicality of Relational Practices: The Dance of Metaphors and Sacred Rituals
50:50 Navigating Trauma and Safety in Relational Work
01:00:00 Embracing Discomfort: The Journey from Propositional to Participatory Connection
01:04:50 Re-exaptation and the Imaginal: The Role of Aporia in Transformative Practices
01:12:10 Final Thoughts and Future Aspirations
—
Become a part of The Vervaeke Foundation's mission to promote the scientifically rigorous pursuit of wisdom and create a lasting impact on the world. vervaekefoundation.org
Join Awaken to Meaning to explore practices that enhance your virtues and foster deeper connections with reality and relationships. awakentomeaning.com
—
Ideas, Authors, and Works Mentioned in this Episode
Alanja Forsberg - Avalon Community
Alexander Bard
Seth Allison - IFS
James Carse - Infinite Game
Andrew Huberman
Kerry Ressler
Robert Kegan
—
Follow John Vervaeke
johnvervaeke.com
twitter.com/vervaeke_john
youtube.com/@johnvervaeke
patreon.com/johnvervaeke
Follow Tataya Bailey
prismaleadership.com
yogawithtataya.com
instagram.com/prisma.leadership
linkedin.com/in/tataya-bailey-9a7249171
—
Thank you for watching!






![Four Kinds of Knowing and Personality, Formal Cause, and Purpose with Sam Tideman
Dr. John Vervaeke engages in an in-depth conversation with Sam Tideman, delving into the four kinds of knowing – procedural, propositional, perspectival, and participatory – and how they relate to personality and understanding of religion. They explore the concept of purpose from both philosophical and psychological perspectives, touching upon the historical and cosmic scale of purpose, human uniqueness in understanding purpose, and the functional purpose in nature. The episode also includes a discussion on Spinozas philosophy and the importance of mindset and awareness, leading to reflections on the implications of purpose for humanity.
Glossary of Terms
Propositional knowledge: Knowledge of facts.
Procedural knowing: Knowing how to do something.
Perspectival knowing: Knowing by noticing aspects of things within how you are sizing up a situation. Knowing what it is like to be noticing from the state of mind you are in of the situation you are in. Knowing what is like being in a particular perspective.
Participatory knowing: Knowing by being. It refers to knowing how to act in the “agent-arena” environment—how the world and you are shaped by the same principles and processes to fit together, whether those processes are natural or cultural. Gravity shapes you, and the ground and culture shape you and the environment into a floor for walking. It is knowing by participating in affordances co-created by you and the world.
Resources and References:
Sam Tideman
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg7Ed0lecvko58ibuX1XHng
John Vervaeke
Website: https://johnvervaeke.com/
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/VervaekeJohn/
X: https://twitter.com/vervaeke_john
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke
The Vervaeke Foundation: https://vervaekefoundation.org/
The Vervaeke Foundation
John Vervaeke YouTube
Awakening from the Meaning Crisis: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLND1JCRq8Vuh3f0P5qjrSdb5eC1ZfZwWJ
Neoplatonism, Gnosticism, and Naturalism w/ Sam Adams: https://youtu.be/Bft-jIZ2oqM?si=OhHHr8ZCZLgRCa9y
Books, Articles, Publications, and Videos
Spinozas Religion: A New Reading of the Ethics - Clare Carlisle: https://www.amazon.com/Spinozas-Religion-New-Reading-Ethics/dp/0691176590
Philosopher of the Heart: The Restless Life of Søren Kierkegaard - Clare Carlisle: https://www.amazon.com/Philosopher-Heart-Restless-S%C3%B8ren-Kierkegaard/dp/0241283582
John Vervaeke on the relevance of Neoplatonism today | Transfigured: https://youtu.be/t3ZpIN85gBQ?si=b8PudpDT0vIwtUnG
Quotes
Its knowing this with your states of consciousness, states of consciousness always have co-defining situational awareness. - John Vervaeke, on perspectival knowing
The way your agency and your character are shaped and your biology is shaped to fit the environment... thats participatory knowing. - John Vervaeke
Chapters with Timestamps
[00:00:00] Introduction of Dr. John Vervaeke
[00:03:07] The Four Kinds of Knowing
[00:04:20] Christian Doctrinal Differences and Kinds of Knowing
[00:08:07] Deeper Definitions and Taxonomy of the Four Ps
[00:17:23] Discussion on Personality and Kinds of Knowing
[00:32:16] Exploring Human Consciousness and Purpose
[00:41:33] The Universe, Life, and the Concept of Purpose
[00:48:22] Human Uniqueness in Understanding Purpose
Timestamped Highlights
[00:00:00] Introduction of Dr.John Vervaeke
[00:03:07] Explanation of the four kinds of knowing
[00:04:20] Discussion on Christian doctrinal differences
[00:08:07] In-depth definitions of the four Ps
[00:17:23] Connecting personality types with kinds of knowing
[00:22:35] Integrating various kinds of knowing for holistic spiritual and personal development
[00:32:16] Exploration of human consciousness and purpose
[00:39:40] Debate on redemptive narrative in history
[00:41:33] The challenge of fitting the Christian mythological arc to the modern understanding of the universe
[00:44:11] Discussing the concept of incarnation
[00:48:22] Human uniqueness in understanding purpose
[00:50:30] The functional purpose in nature
[00:52:28] Mount Everest as an example of purpose without consciousness
[00:53:14] Introduction to Spinoza’s concept of conatas
[00:58:00] Reflecting on the quality of life in the universe
[01:05:00] The significance of life beyond quantity
[01:10:30] Philosophical implications of understanding purpose
[01:20:20] Discussing the impact of human mortality awareness on purpose and understanding
[01:30:00] Understanding purpose in existence and its implications in Christianity and pragmatism Four Kinds of Knowing and Personality, Formal Cause, and Purpose with Sam Tideman](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/TrW3DOIkP78/mqdefault.jpg)
![Delving into the Frontiers of Artificial General Intelligence with Sam Tideman
John Vervaeke and guest Sam Tideman delve into the intricate world of artificial general intelligence (AGI) and its intersection with healthcare. Sam, an expert in biostatistics, machine learning, and AI, shares valuable insights from his professional experiences, particularly in healthcare system optimization. The conversation navigates the ethical and moral challenges of applying AI in complex environments like emergency departments, the intricacies of predictive modeling, and the broader societal implications of AI, including its energy consumption and public perception. This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in understanding the nuanced interplay between technology, healthcare, and ethics, offering a comprehensive perspective on the current and future potential of AI to transform lives and systems.
Sam Tideman, an accomplished healthcare data scientist with an MS in Biostatistics, blends his analytical acumen with a passion for theology in his podcast, Transfigured. The podcast features long-form discussions exploring the identity of Jesus, reflecting Sams unique intersection of scientific expertise and spiritual inquiry.
Glossary of Terms
AGI (Artificial General Intelligence): An AI that has the ability to understand, learn, and apply its intelligence to a wide range of problems, much like human intelligence.
Biostatistics: The application of statistics to a wide range of topics in biology.
Resources and References:
Sam Tideman
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg7Ed0lecvko58ibuX1XHng
John Vervaeke
Website: https://johnvervaeke.com/
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/VervaekeJohn/
X: https://twitter.com/vervaeke_john
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke
The Vervaeke Foundation: https://vervaekefoundation.org/
John Vervaeke YouTube
Awakening from the Meaning Crisis - series: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLND1JCRq8Vuh3f0P5qjrSdb5eC1ZfZwWJ
Artificial Intelligence - series: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLND1JCRq8Vui2YOOfrxbeRwJk5jZPmAth
The Crossroads of Predictive Processing and Relevance Realization | Leiden Symposium: https://youtu.be/51wcY39ouGs?si=XkxAE9deBj8kr_dl
Books, Articles, Publications, and Videos
Mentoring the Machines: Orientation - Part One: Surviving the Deep Impact of the Artificially Intelligent Tomorrow - John Vervaeke, Shawn Coyne
Mentoring the Machines: Origins - Part 2: Surviving the Deep Impact of the Artificially Intelligent Tomorrow - John Vervaeke, Shawn Coyne
Predictive processing and relevance realization: Exploring convergent solutions to the frame problem. Phenomenology and the Cognitive Sciences. Andersen, B., Miller, M., & Vervaeke, J. (2022).
Related Resources
Chicagoland Bridges of Meaning Meetup
Timestamped Highlights
[00:00:00] John opens the discussion by welcoming Sam and introducing the topic of artificial general intelligence (AGI).
[00:01:15] Sam shares his diverse background, which spans theology, philosophy, and artificial intelligence.
[00:06:15] The conversation focuses on AIs potential and dangers, setting the stage for the days discussion.
[00:09:28] Sam reflects on the complexities he faced while trying to implement AI in emergency department forecasting.
[00:14:53] Sam points out the practical limitations of AI in real-world applications.
[00:21:38] Sam criticizes the inflated expectations surrounding AI in healthcare projects.
[00:26:26] John and Sam discuss how predictive processing and relevance realization can be integrated into AI.
[00:29:37] They delve into the potential of AI to emulate human qualities like intentionality and care.
[00:34:11] John emphasizes the need to recognize the limitations of AI in solving complex real-world problems.
[00:38:30] Sams parable features an AI model in healthcare that prescribes drugs probabilistically and learns from outcomes, hinting at AIs emerging agency.
[00:42:10] The feasibility of AI replicating human intuition and judgment in complex scenarios is questioned.
[00:46:15] John highlights the importance of a multidisciplinary approach to understanding and developing AI.
[00:49:57] Philosophical aspects of AI, such as intentionality and consciousness, are explored in-depth.
[00:53:30] Sustainability concerns in AI development, especially compared to the human brains efficiency, are discussed.
[01:06:40] The episode concludes with a discussion on AIs inability to align with human normativity and the limitations of its social, cultural, and biological understanding. Delving into the Frontiers of Artificial General Intelligence with Sam Tideman](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/TxZdwrjM96I/mqdefault.jpg)


