![[The UFO Rabbit Hole] Ep. 37: James Madden [Pt. 5]: The Death Drive & Disclosure @InquirywithKellyChase](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/JxITYHmZTvE/maxresdefault.jpg)
Uploaded August 2024 | Updated September 2026, 2 days ago
In this episode of the UFO Rabbit Hole Podcast, host Kelly Chase returns from a hiatus with a brand new conversation with James Madden. The episode explores themes of psychoanalysis, epistemic vulnerability, and the psychological motivations behind belief systems in ufology. Together, Kelly and Jim ponder the deeper implications of mind control, trauma, and the symbolic nature of our cultural fascination with UFOs, aiming to navigate the complex landscape of human inquiry and understanding.
BECOME A PATRON
Patrons get lots of great perks like early and ad-free episodes, access to the private The UFO Rabbit Hole Discord server, and twice-monthly Patron Zoom calls with Kelly Chase.
Memberships start at just $5/month.
FOLLOW
Website: uforabbithole.com
Twitter: twitter.com/ufo_rabbit_hole
TIMESTAMPS
01:02 Upcoming Documentary and Personal Transformation
02:27 A New Direction for the Podcast
02:44 Conversation with Dr. James Madden
04:35 Dr. Madden's Recent Work and Psychoanalysis
06:36 Freudian Insights and Human Motivation
10:37 Epistemic Vulnerability and Belief Systems
15:07 Challenges in Ufology and Disclosure
22:20 Language, Belief, and Mind Control
25:41 Reflecting on Personal Beliefs
26:26 Freud's Death Drive and Trauma Reenactment
29:52 The Addictive Nature of Unfulfilled Promises
31:08 Comparing Ufology to Sports Fandom
33:18 Personal Struggles and Finding Meaning in Danger
35:21 Cultural and Political Outrage Cycles
40:28 Symbolism in Dreams and Collective Psyche
44:29 The Unending Human Project and Self-Destruction
46:29 Concluding Thoughts and Gratitude
In this episode of the UFO Rabbit Hole Podcast, host Kelly Chase returns from a hiatus with a brand new conversation with James Madden. The episode explores themes of psychoanalysis, epistemic vulnerability, and the psychological motivations behind belief systems in ufology. Together, Kelly and Jim ponder the deeper implications of mind control, trauma, and the symbolic nature of our cultural fascination with UFOs, aiming to navigate the complex landscape of human inquiry and understanding.
BECOME A PATRON
Patrons get lots of great perks like early and ad-free episodes, access to the private The UFO Rabbit Hole Discord server, and twice-monthly Patron Zoom calls with Kelly Chase.
Memberships start at just $5/month.
FOLLOW
Website: uforabbithole.com
Twitter: twitter.com/ufo_rabbit_hole
TIMESTAMPS
01:02 Upcoming Documentary and Personal Transformation
02:27 A New Direction for the Podcast
02:44 Conversation with Dr. James Madden
04:35 Dr. Madden's Recent Work and Psychoanalysis
06:36 Freudian Insights and Human Motivation
10:37 Epistemic Vulnerability and Belief Systems
15:07 Challenges in Ufology and Disclosure
22:20 Language, Belief, and Mind Control
25:41 Reflecting on Personal Beliefs
26:26 Freud's Death Drive and Trauma Reenactment
29:52 The Addictive Nature of Unfulfilled Promises
31:08 Comparing Ufology to Sports Fandom
33:18 Personal Struggles and Finding Meaning in Danger
35:21 Cultural and Political Outrage Cycles
40:28 Symbolism in Dreams and Collective Psyche
44:29 The Unending Human Project and Self-Destruction
46:29 Concluding Thoughts and Gratitude
![[The UFO Rabbit Hole] Ep. 37: James Madden [Pt. 5]: The Death Drive & Disclosure](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/JxITYHmZTvE/mqdefault.jpg "[The UFO Rabbit Hole] Ep. 37: James Madden [Pt. 5]: The Death Drive & Disclosure
In this episode of the UFO Rabbit Hole Podcast, host Kelly Chase returns from a hiatus with a brand new conversation with James Madden. The episode explores themes of psychoanalysis, epistemic vulnerability, and the psychological motivations behind belief systems in ufology. Together, Kelly and Jim ponder the deeper implications of mind control, trauma, and the symbolic nature of our cultural fascination with UFOs, aiming to navigate the complex landscape of human inquiry and understanding.
BECOME A PATRON
Patrons get lots of great perks like early and ad-free episodes, access to the private The UFO Rabbit Hole Discord server, and twice-monthly Patron Zoom calls with Kelly Chase.
Memberships start at just $5/month.
FOLLOW
Website: uforabbithole.com
Twitter: twitter.com/ufo_rabbit_hole
TIMESTAMPS
01:02 Upcoming Documentary and Personal Transformation
02:27 A New Direction for the Podcast
02:44 Conversation with Dr. James Madden
04:35 Dr. Maddens Recent Work and Psychoanalysis
06:36 Freudian Insights and Human Motivation
10:37 Epistemic Vulnerability and Belief Systems
15:07 Challenges in Ufology and Disclosure
22:20 Language, Belief, and Mind Control
25:41 Reflecting on Personal Beliefs
26:26 Freuds Death Drive and Trauma Reenactment
29:52 The Addictive Nature of Unfulfilled Promises
31:08 Comparing Ufology to Sports Fandom
33:18 Personal Struggles and Finding Meaning in Danger
35:21 Cultural and Political Outrage Cycles
40:28 Symbolism in Dreams and Collective Psyche
44:29 The Unending Human Project and Self-Destruction
46:29 Concluding Thoughts and Gratitude")
![[The UFO Rabbit Hole] Ep 5: The Interdimensional & Ultraterrestrial Hypotheses](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/K_nWPzfZnmI/mqdefault.jpg "[The UFO Rabbit Hole] Ep 5: The Interdimensional & Ultraterrestrial Hypotheses
Although the UFO phenomenon tends to be associated with aliens, there are a few even more fantastical theories about its origins.
Many of most respected scientists and researchers in ufology dont think that the evidence points to any of the more conventional explanations — and that whoever is creating UFOs might not be from the stars at all, but from right here on Earth.
But how could an advanced civilization be here without our knowledge? In this episode we explore the possible answers.
Music: Eleven Hours A Night by Yehezkel Raz
https://yehezkelraz.com/
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Introduction
00:05:14 Jacques Valleé & J. Allen Hynek
00:10:10 Valleé’s 5 Arguments Against The Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis
00:10:46 Argument 1 - The Reports Are Too Numerous
00:12:11 Argument 2 - Humanoid “Aliens” Are Not Likely To Have Originated On Another Planet
00:13:00 Argument 3 - The Behavior Of These Beings Doesn’t Make Sense
00:14:46 Argument 4 - The Phenomenon Has Been Present Throughout Recorded Human History
00:16:51 Argument 5 - The Technology Suggests Something More Than Extraterrestrial
00:17:44 Valleé’s New Hypotheses
00:18:10 The Interdimensional Hypothesis
00:19:50 The Ultraterrestrial Hypothesis
00:20:59 Is The UFO Phenomenon A Control Mechanism?
00:24:06 Music Break
00:25:30 Do Other Dimensions Exist?
00:25:52 The Double Slit Experiment Revisited
00:29:43 The Copenhagen Interpretation
00:32:23 The Many Worlds Interpretation
00:34:01 Grappling With Infinity
00:34:58 The Free Will Problem
00:36:49 Infinity And The Self
00:37:24 An Unprovable Hypothesis
00:39:00 What About The Multiverse? Is The Multiverse The Same As Many Worlds?
00:39:57 Problems With The Multiverse Theory
00:44:00 String Theory And The 11th Dimension
00:45:26 The Verdict On The Interdimensional Hypothesis
00:47:23 Could Paranormal Phenomena Be Interdimensional?
00:49:15 Music Break
00:50:16 The Ultraterrestrial Hypothesis
00:50:25 Lue Elizondo & Chains Of The Sea
00:53:54 Could There Be Species On Earth We Don’t Know About?
00:54:12 Cryptids That Turned Out To Be Real
00:57:07 Where Could Cryptids and Ultraterrestrial Species Hide?
00:57:36 Possibility 1 - Other Universes/Dimensions
00:58:06 Possibility 2 - Underwater
00:58:22 Our Unexplored Oceans
00:59:31 UFOs & Water
01:01:07 The Mystery Of Lake Baikal
01:03:22 Possibility 3 - Underground
01:05:35 Hollow Earth
01:07:32 Fuck Cynicism
Get the full show notes along with photos, videos, source list, bonus materials, & more: http://bit.ly/ep5notes
Listen on Apple Podcasts: http://bit.ly/ufo-rabbit-hole
Listen on Google Podcasts: http://bit.ly/2ZltYr6
Listen on Spotify: http://bit.ly/uforabbithole")
![[The UFO Rabbit Hole] Ep 33: An Interview with Whitley Strieber: On Communion with NHIs](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KuG1CMg8UTc/mqdefault.jpg "[The UFO Rabbit Hole] Ep 33: An Interview with Whitley Strieber: On Communion with NHIs
Content Warning: Sexual assault
In this episode, I had the pleasure of sitting down with someone that I regard to be one of the best minds and brightest lights in this field, Whitley Strieber. Whitley Strieber is an author of both fiction and nonfiction books, perhaps the most famous of which is his pioneering 1987 book Communion, which detailed his experience of abduction that occurred in the winter of 1985. Since then, Whitley has made many other contributions to the field including his most recent book entitled Them, and the book Super Natural which he co-wrote with Jeffrey J. Kripal, both of which have been referenced several times on this podcast. Whitley is also the host of the long-running Dreamland podcast. You can find links to all of this and more in the episode brief.
Whitley’s work has been instrumental to my thinking and growth in this space, and I’m so grateful for both his courage and generosity in sharing his time and his insights.
EPISODE BRIEF
https://uforabbithole.com/podcast/ep-33-an-interview-with-whitley-strieber-on-communion-with-non-human-intelligences/
MORE FROM WHITLEY STRIEBER
Books by Whitley Strieber: https://www.unknowncountry.com/shop/whitleys-books/
Dreamland Podcast: https://www.unknowncountry.com/podcasts/dreamland
Unknown Country: https://www.unknowncountry.com
Follow Whitley on X: https://twitter.com/WhitleyStrieber
MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE
Terrible, Glorious, & Useful by Trevor Shikaze
https://www.wawi.space/books/p/terrible-glorious-useful-book-one
BECOME A PATRON
https://www.patreon.com/uforabbithole
Patrons get lots of great perks like early and ad-free episodes, access to the private The UFO Rabbit Hole Discord server, and twice-monthly Patron Zoom calls with Kelly Chase.
Memberships start at just $5/month.
GET THE BOOK
Get a SIGNED COPY: https://uforabbithole.store
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FOLLOW
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/ uforabbithole")
![[The UFO Rabbit Hole] Whistleblower David Grusch Reveals Existence of UFO Crash Retrieval Program](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/LElDrPFmXZk/mqdefault.jpg "[The UFO Rabbit Hole] Whistleblower David Grusch Reveals Existence of UFO Crash Retrieval Program
On Monday, June 5th, 2023, a story was published by The Debrief presenting claims from the first whistleblower to step forward publicly since the passing of UAP whistleblower legislation with the 2023 National Defense Authorization Act a few months ago. This whistleblower, David Charles Rusch, is a high-level member of the intelligence community, and he is claiming to have knowledge of special access programs that have recovered non-human technological craft.
Later that same day, an excerpt from an interview with the whistleblower conducted by investigative journalist, Ross Coulthart, was aired on NewsNation in which Rusch made even more shocking claims—including the allegation that the US has also recovered the bodies of the non-human pilots of these craft.
In this episode we do a deep dive into this story, doing our best to frame it within the great context of the disclosure movement, and ask the question: what does all this mean? And can what David Grusch is saying really be true?
GET THE EPISODE BRIEF
https://uforabbithole.com/podcast/whistleblower-david-grusch-reveals-existence-of-secret-ufo-crash-retrieval-program/
GET THE BOOK
Get a SIGNED COPY: uforabbithole.store
Get it on Amazon: a.co/d/64OSUTa
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Website: uforabbithole.com
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MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson")
![The Moon Is Weird AF [Pt 1] #science #moon #space](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OF535uLYU1U/mqdefault.jpg "The Moon Is Weird AF [Pt 1] #science #moon #space
🌓 We all think we know the Moon. But what if that familiarity is an illusion?
Too big. Too close. Too perfect. Scientists can’t fully explain where it came from—or why it’s so essential to life.
This isn’t just fringe conspiracy talk. Once you start digging into the science, the strangeness becomes undeniable.
🌕 Follow for Part 2: Did we really land on the Moon… or was something waiting for us when we got there?
#TheMoonIsWeird #UFOs #SpaceMysteries #Anomalous #Cosmosis #ScienceTikTok #MoonConspiracy #HighStrangeness #MysteryTok #AltHistory #SpiritualTikTok #ConspiracyTok #HiddenInPlainSight")
![Cosmosis: UFOs & A New Reality [Trailer]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PDYxoKYvUoQ/mqdefault.jpg "Cosmosis: UFOs & A New Reality [Trailer]
Cosmosis is available on Amazon Prime, Apple TV, Fandango at Home, Vimeo, YouTube, and Google Play. Learn more at https://Cosmosis.Media.
As people and governments around the world come to terms with the reality of the UFO phenomenon, top experts in science, philosophy, religious studies, and more are grappling with its implications for humanity. Cosmosis: UFOs & A New Reality explores how these revelations challenge our understanding of history, non-human intelligence, and the future. Through interviews with leading researchers and experiencers, this docuseries uncovers the latest evidence and theories, offering a fresh perspective on how these discoveries could reshape society and our place in the cosmos.
Featuring:
Diana Walsh Pasulka, PhD
Whitley Strieber
Jeffrey Kripal, PhD
Michael Masters, PhD
Mario Woods
Alex Dietrich
James Madden, PhD
Iya Whiteley PhD
Kelly Chase
Jay Christopher King
Stephen Finley, PhD
Paul H. Smith, PhD
Daniel Elizondo
James Iandoli
Greg Bishop
Joshua Cutchin
Robin Lassiter
Max McCabe
And introducing:
Courtney Leffall
Directed by
Jay Christopher King
Written by
Kelly Chase w/ Jay Christopher King
Consulting Producer
Jeffrey Kripal
Edited by
Zev Deans
Music by
Michael Rubino
Animations by
Fin Handley
Executive Producers
Jordan Flowers
Kelly Chase
Jay Christopher King
Teddy Jones")
![[The UFO Rabbit Hole] Ep 19: Waking Up Inside The Cave [Pt 1]: Everything You Know Is Wrong](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PL49UYhyX5U/mqdefault.jpg "[The UFO Rabbit Hole] Ep 19: Waking Up Inside The Cave [Pt 1]: Everything You Know Is Wrong
In many ways, our trip down the rabbit hole has been leading us, inevitably, to this episode. It’s in this episode that we reach a decisive inflection point. Nothing will be the same after this—maybe not even you.
Over the previous 18 episodes, I have done my best to make the case, not only that the UFO phenomenon is real, but that the complexity, ubiquity, and unintelligibility of the phenomenon are so great as to suggest that many of our most fundamental assumptions about the nature of reality itself may be incorrect.
This episode is my closing argument in the case of The Phenomenon vs. Consensus Reality. And when it’s done, I hope that you’ll agree with me that it’s time to burn it all down. Or at the very least, I hope you’ll agree that perhaps it’s time to consider some new models of reality that have the potential to reintroduce meaning and intelligibility into our broken world where impossible things won’t stop happening.
In this episode, we’ll begin by talking about what’s broken with our current models including the Big Bang, the hard problem of consciousness, quantum mechanics, and space-time. And we begin to ask, what do our broken models suggest about the nature of the cave that we find ourselves in? And what does all of this have to do with UFOs?
LISTEN TO THESE EPISODES FIRST
If these ideas are new to you, you might find it helpful to go back and listen to the previous two episodes to get greater context.
Ep 17: An Interview with Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka: https://uforabbithole.com/podcast/ep-17-an-interview-with-dr-diana-walsh-pasulka/
Ep 18: An Interview with Dr. James Madden: https://uforabbithole.com/podcast/ep-18-an-interview-with-dr-james-madden-philosophy-ufos/
GO TO EPISODE BRIEF
https://uforabbithole.com/podcast/ep-19-waking-up-in-the-cave-pt-1-everything-you-know-is-wrong/
GET TICKETS TO THE OHIO UFO HERITAGE CONFERENCE
https://ufoheritage.com
May 5th & 6th at the historic Hope Hotel at Wright Patterson Air Force Base.
BECOME A PATRON
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GET THE BOOK
https://a.co/d/ifiecyE
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MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
Music Break: Digital Abyss by Stephen Keech
TIMESTAMPS
00:00:30 Introduction
00:04:03 The “Official Story of Everything”
00:07:00 The Dream of the Cave
00:13:55 Everything You Know Is Wrong
00:19:45 The Big Bang
00:29:28 The Ghost in the Machine
00:37:35 Music Break
00:38:32 The Hard Problem of Consciousness
00:45:52 Quantum Mechanics Breaks Everything
00:55:22 Space-Time Is Doomed
00:57:35 The Emperor Has No Clothes
01:01:25 The Walls of the Cave")
![[The UFO Rabbit Hole] Ep 7: Mr. Delonge Goes To Washington [Part 2]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PNq0RCvJ0Qc/mqdefault.jpg "[The UFO Rabbit Hole] Ep 7: Mr. Delonge Goes To Washington [Part 2]
In this episode, we pick up with Tom Delonge where we left off in Part 1 — with the stunning and unlikely events that led to the formation of the To The Stars Academy of Arts & Sciences and the ultimately to the Pentagon’s admission that UFOs are real.
So what happened to TTSA? What are the original TTSA members (including Lou Elizondo, Chris Mellon, Jim Semivan, Hal Puthoff, and Steve Justice) doing now? In this episode we’ll get an update.
We’ll also explore why it is, that despite his astonishing success and ultimate vindication that Tom Delonge continues to be a controversial figure in the UFO community.
And finally, we’ll get to the part that everyone has been waiting for — what does Tom Delonge believe about the UFO phenomenon? It’s been confirmed that Delonge’s advisors within the government weren’t just real, but they are the very people who would know what secrets the government might be hiding about UFOs. So with this insider knowledge and guidance, one has to assume that what Delonge says publicly about his beliefs surrounding the phenomena has been shaped significantly by his exposure to and briefings by these individuals.
Which is exactly why what Tom Delonge has to say about UFOs is so shocking. You won’t want to miss this one.
Get the full show notes along with photos, videos, source list, bonus materials, & more: bit.ly/ep7brief
The UFO Rabbit Hole Website: uforabbithole.com
Join the Patreon: patreon.com/uforabbithole
Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/ufo_rabbit_hole
Follow us on Facebook: facebook.com/uforabbithole
Follow us on Youtube: youtube.com/c/TheUFORabbitHolePodcast
Listen on Apple Podcasts: bit.ly/ufo-rabbit-hole
Listen on Google Podcasts: bit.ly/ufo-rabbit-hole
Listen on Spotify: /bit.ly/uforabbithole
Hear the full interview of Ross Coulthart on Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal: https://youtu.be/JM3kxeU_oDE
TIMESTAMPS
01:16 Intro
01:54 Where Is To The Stars Academy Now?
05:01 What does Lou Elizondo say about Tom Delonge and TTSA?
09:06 Why Is Tom Delonge A Controversial Figure In The UFO Community?
09:15 Reason 1: He’s Tom Delonge
11:06 Reason 2: People are jealous
13:02 Reason 3: He’s making money.
17:25 Reason 4: Why Tom Delonge?
18:34 Reason 5: Everyone hates the military-industrial complex.
24:38 What Does Tom Delonge Believe (and why it freaks Ross Coulthart out)?
33:16 The Universe According To Tom Delonge
33:28 God
33:56 Humans & The Others
34:31 Atlantis
35:00 “gods with a little ‘g’”
35:43 Religion & Cargo Cults
36:35 Roswell, Other Crashes & the Beginning of UFO Secrecy
37:38 Cold War
37:58 Disinformation Campaigns
38:16 What did we find on the Moon?
38:32 Alien Abductions, Cattle Mutilations & Demons
38:46 What is special about humans?
39:16 A black pyramid underground in Alaska
39:38 Conclusion
Episode Reading List:
Sekret Machines: Gods: Volume 1 of Gods Man & War (Gods, Man & War) by Tom Delonge and Peter Lavenda
Sekret Machines: Man: Sekret Machines Gods, Man, and War Volume 2 by Tom Delonge and Peter Lavenda
Sekret Machines Book One: Chasing Shadows by Tom DeLonge & A.J. Hartley
Sekret Machines Book Two: A Fire Within by Tom DeLonge & A.J. Hartley")
