Uploaded June 2023 | Updated September 2026, 2 hours ago
A #podcast about how the Supreme Court got so supreme.
When the justices heard oral arguments in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization, the landmark abortion case, one word came up more than any other: viability. The viability line was at the core of Roe v. Wade, and it’s been entrenched in the abortion rights movement ever since. But no one seems to remember how this idea made its way into the abortion debate in the first place.
In this episode of More Perfect, we trace it back to the source and discover how a clerk and a couple of judges turned a fuzzy medical concept into a hard legal line.
CONTENT WARNING: This episode starts with a story of pregnancy loss.
Voices in the episode include:
• George Frampton — former clerk to Justice Harry Blackmun
• Judge Jon Newman — Second Circuit Court of Appeals
• Khiara Bridges — UC Berkeley School of Law professor
• Alex J. Harris — lawyer, former member of the Joshua Generation
Learn more:
• 1973: Roe v. Wade — oyez.org/cases/1971/70-18
• 2022: Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization — oyez.org/cases/2021/19-1392
Correction: An earlier version of this episode stated that Justice Blackmun was the first to define pregnancy in terms of trimesters. Upon further review, he seems to have been the first to apply that framework to abortion law specifically, but it appeared in at least one medical text earlier, in 1904. We have updated the episode to address this error.
Subscribe & Listen:
• Subscribe to WNYC Studios on YouTube so you never miss an episode: bit.ly/3VovhOq
• Or subscribe to More Perfect wherever you listen to podcasts: bit.ly/3Ns9BPz
• Check out The Most Perfect Album (cools songs about the 27 amendments to the Constitution): bit.ly/3p5aWl2
• Like this video and leave us a comment!
Follow More Perfect:
Instagram — instagram.com/moreperfectpodcast
Facebook — facebook.com/moreperfectpodcast
Twitter — twitter.com/moreperfect
About More Perfect:
The Supreme Court was designed to be above the fray of politics. But at a time when politics seems to seep into every pore of American life, are the nine justices living up to that promise? More Perfect is a guide to the current moment on the Court. We bring the highest court of the land down to earth, telling the human dramas at the Court that shape so many aspects of American life — from our religious freedom to our artistic expression, from our reproductive choices to our voice in democracy.
The fourth season, hosted by Julia Longoria (a former More Perfect producer) will revisit the human dramas at the Court that are driving change around core aspects of American life today — from our religious freedom to our artistic expression; from our reproductive choices to our voice in democracy.
Supreme Court archival audio comes from Oyez®, a free law project by Justia and the Legal Information Institute of Cornell Law School.
Support for More Perfect is provided in part by The Smart Family Fund.
Episode illustration by Candice Evers candiceevers.com
A #podcast about how the Supreme Court got so supreme.
When the justices heard oral arguments in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization, the landmark abortion case, one word came up more than any other: viability. The viability line was at the core of Roe v. Wade, and it’s been entrenched in the abortion rights movement ever since. But no one seems to remember how this idea made its way into the abortion debate in the first place.
In this episode of More Perfect, we trace it back to the source and discover how a clerk and a couple of judges turned a fuzzy medical concept into a hard legal line.
CONTENT WARNING: This episode starts with a story of pregnancy loss.
Voices in the episode include:
• George Frampton — former clerk to Justice Harry Blackmun
• Judge Jon Newman — Second Circuit Court of Appeals
• Khiara Bridges — UC Berkeley School of Law professor
• Alex J. Harris — lawyer, former member of the Joshua Generation
Learn more:
• 1973: Roe v. Wade — oyez.org/cases/1971/70-18
• 2022: Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization — oyez.org/cases/2021/19-1392
Correction: An earlier version of this episode stated that Justice Blackmun was the first to define pregnancy in terms of trimesters. Upon further review, he seems to have been the first to apply that framework to abortion law specifically, but it appeared in at least one medical text earlier, in 1904. We have updated the episode to address this error.
Subscribe & Listen:
• Subscribe to WNYC Studios on YouTube so you never miss an episode: bit.ly/3VovhOq
• Or subscribe to More Perfect wherever you listen to podcasts: bit.ly/3Ns9BPz
• Check out The Most Perfect Album (cools songs about the 27 amendments to the Constitution): bit.ly/3p5aWl2
• Like this video and leave us a comment!
Follow More Perfect:
Instagram — instagram.com/moreperfectpodcast
Facebook — facebook.com/moreperfectpodcast
Twitter — twitter.com/moreperfect
About More Perfect:
The Supreme Court was designed to be above the fray of politics. But at a time when politics seems to seep into every pore of American life, are the nine justices living up to that promise? More Perfect is a guide to the current moment on the Court. We bring the highest court of the land down to earth, telling the human dramas at the Court that shape so many aspects of American life — from our religious freedom to our artistic expression, from our reproductive choices to our voice in democracy.
The fourth season, hosted by Julia Longoria (a former More Perfect producer) will revisit the human dramas at the Court that are driving change around core aspects of American life today — from our religious freedom to our artistic expression; from our reproductive choices to our voice in democracy.
Supreme Court archival audio comes from Oyez®, a free law project by Justia and the Legal Information Institute of Cornell Law School.
Support for More Perfect is provided in part by The Smart Family Fund.
Episode illustration by Candice Evers candiceevers.com
