Uploaded April 2026 | Updated September 2026, 2 weeks ago

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Join product experts John Cutler and Ivana Ciric as they deconstruct the "messy" reality of product org transformation. Moving beyond rigid frameworks and feature factory mentalities, explore how leaders can embrace complexity, use AI for strategic sense-making and finally bridge the gap from simply shipping code to delivering genuine business value.

Read the full transcript here:
thoughtworks.com/insights/podcasts/pragmatism-in-practice/navigating-the-messy-middle--a-guide-to-real-product-organizatio