ToadsWoot
Since my last attempt at a TAS of this level, better TASing tools have been programmed (thank you Schneeheide) and more glitches were found. Unsurprisingly, the general TAS quality went up by quite a bit, but I still have a lot to learn.
updated 3 months ago
Can still save 20 - 30 seconds overall and skipping the Strandula would save another 10 - 15 seconds or so (but it makes the Null fight even harder).
Might still try for a 36, but the fact that you can randomly get a different warp (not Seesyde) that saves 40 seconds is a bit dumb, so I'm not sure if I want to.
Do I go for a 37? I don't know...
Overall, most splits went decently well, but only the Chu Boss Fight went perfectly (which never happens). DHC was particularly good besides Vaati, although it can still be better. Counting the bigger mistakes, they lost around 1 minute together, so luckily general gameplay was good enough to recover some time.
Sceond pb with the new route, slowly getting there.
twitch.tv/toadswoot
The corners of these walls specifically have some interesting properties that other corners don't have. For this trick, we trigger a jump slash towards the chu which propels Link pretty high up due to Zelda also walking into him. Link then gets stuck on the corner for just a few frames before falling down again; this only happens on walls facing north, probably due to the slopes they have (other walls don't have them). While stuck on the corner, you can trigger infinite jump slashes to stay in mid-air, and interestingly, you can also trigger a jump onto Zelda, allowing us to let her carry Link in pretty much every room.
Since this is quite difficult to pull off RTA, it's not all that useful, but the TAS will have some applications for it to save a few seconds.
The only way to get stuck between a door and a block like here is when the block has something on top off it, making the surface not walkable. Normally, you would glitch onto the block instead, but because there's another object, we're being pushed into the small space instead.
Note that some doors will not create a small space between block and door and would therefore not work.
Since these kind of blocks only exist in very few rooms, this is the only place we've been able to perform a door clip. Of course, this doesn't save time, since we actually need the block on the left side, not the right.
Yesterday night, I found a weird horizontal / vertical boost you can get by rolling at the corner of an object while being on ice. This boost is special because for some reason it lets you clip into walls and objects by a few pixel.
Originally, I tried clipping through a thin fence just for science, but it didn't seem possible - they're still too thick. Cato found out that diagonal boosts are also possible, and Myth then managed to make this clip possible.
The current setup is quite nice, but the roll itself is restricted to 1 frame, so it's very precise. Still, this method is an improvement over our previous Octo Clip, saving 1 additional minute and making reattempts less painful as they only take about 12 seconds instead of 40. Even with an unoptimized setup, it is also easier to execute.
If you want a more detailed explanation, please read the description of Myth's video: youtube.com/watch?v=kQO1LmC7QTE
So far, it seems that the bow is the only progressive item you can get from chests. Other inventory items can be duped too, but they will just result in the same item again (which does nothing).
Normally, after opening a chest, there is a 10 frame input lockout where you can't pause / open the menu, etc. However, if you mash through the text as quickly as possible, this lockout doesn't exist for some reason.
Using this, we can pause the game on the first frame after the text box to save and quit. The game only updates the chest state on frame 2 after opening it, so if we save and quit on frame 1, we get the item, and the chest stays closed. Reloading the save lets us gets a second key.
You're probably wondering what the maximum amount of keys it: it's 8.
And unfortunately, getting more than 8 and then using one will indeed put you at 7 keys.
This will save a few minutes in the run, but unfortunately not much more than that. The game doesn't actually use key doors super often, and for some of them duping just isn't worth it.
Today, I made an interesting discovery about how exactly we can get out of bounds using walls that face upwards. This let me to believe that certain spots should Link allow to enter out of bounds, which the game usually tries to prevent as much as possible. A very similar method is used in Sand Temple already, which, in hindsight, was quite a lucky find.
Walls like these actually have a little bit of a slope at the top, which lets Link slide down instead of immediately dropping to the floor. This was already known for a long time, though.
Our new information is that there is a 4 pixel gap between the floor and the slope. This means that, as long as we are at least 4 units above the floor, we will be able to touch the slope.
Interestingly, if there was something to jump slash on the other side, we could theoretically gain infinite distance/height, as jump slashes will gain more height than we lose during the cooldown.
As there is nothing to use jump slashes on here though, we need to use rolls, which are very limited in nature. For this to work, we need to be quite high already in order to make it to the other side.
By using particular movements, Link can lose very little height, before being back brought up a little by a bomb boost. By itself, this isn't enough, so we use one more precise roll to gain just enough distance to get back to the top.
Last year, I was testing this particular spot a lot, and it didn't seem that any angle would Link allow to gain enough distance on the wall. With our new knowledge however, it was much easier to figure out how we can make it work.
The sad news: Despite now having this knowledge, I'm not sure if there are any other spots that could potentially lead to a useful OoB.
The splices in question are:
After the pot room (0:49 - 0:51)
After the keese room (1:17 - 1:39)
Note that these parts still use the original inputs, I had just had to get a little creative in putting together the full level/video. It's a little difficult to explain, but I believe I can prevent this issue in future levels by working a bit differently.
It is a shame, but we definitely expected some of these issues to arise.
Anyway - The level itself turned out to be quite interesting. Initially, I thought 1-2 would be glitchless in co-op, but luckily I was still able to use the freeze clip from 1P as well as the FMC from the 1P TAS and use it here. Interestingly, I even managed to sneak in a little glitch in the keese room! It is possible to shoot the other player across gaps with the bow, although usually they will fall down as they touch the wall/floor. However, by landing exactly on the edge of a corner, you're able to land on the floor and make it onto the other side.
This turned out to be surprisingly helpful, as P1 can already get the gems and activate the switch while P2 is doing the rest of the room. I was pleasantly surprised by the result.
youtube.com/watch?v=JdQHM1aOb1M
It's finally possible (although with a very different method than normal TAS tools)
First run, lots of bad stuff but here we go
Edit in 2022: Well, it also turned out to be the only run
I don't know if a route with these two tricks would save time over what we currently have. But it does finally allow us to do dungeons out of order.
Wouldn't recommend doing this in RTA due to its inconsistency, but maybe a good setup can be made.
A lot of things are happening here, and all of them are a little dumb.
Wrecker Phantom Zelda usually cannot carry objects, but by picking up an object and then calling her, she will carry the object to you anyway. Since you can't really control her when calling, I had to put the arrow thing into the correct position myself.
Luckily, after shooting the arrow thing, it will actually stay in place and shoot the arrow from where it was hit, rather than updating together with Zelda. Else this would have been a lot more painful to do.
After opening the door, we can use a wall clip to clip to the left side - there is no other way to get Link over there, since Zelda can't walk around with Link as Wrecker Phantom. The wall clip is just barely enough because this is a 1 tile wall, most of the time walls are at least 2 tiles thick.
Up on the next floor, we have to skip the boss key, as Zelda cannot carry or throw the boss key into the key hole, not even with the "call" trick.
So, to make it as interesting as possible, we're using the floor masters to clip up the fence.
By placing a stunned floor master into the corner, the huge knockback from the other floor master will clip us up/over the fence. Falling doesn't matter, as you can still respawn on fences.
Now we need to get to the other side. You can use a bomb boost, which is a lot simpler. Since I only had 1 bomb left that I need for the next part however, I'm using the floor master instead. Looks way cooler anyway.
Arriving at the other fence, all that's missing is another wall clip with Zelda to clip up the wall. From there, a roll onto the key hole is enough to clip into it, and Zelda is luckily close enough to trigger the transition.
Something to note: Failing the last wall clip or the last roll onto the key hole will get you stuck, as there is way to get Zelda back to the left side or Link to the upper part of the floor. This also doesn't save much time (only have rough timings), so we won't see this in RTA runs.
To start off, this uses a new glitch I found that lets you clip through/up walls by delaying the animation where Link fully jumps onto Zelda. This is done by opening any menu as you roll onto Zelda. By delaying the animation, Link is put towards the direction Zelda is facing as long as the menu is open. In this case, we're clipping slightly right, and because the menu is open, we're not being pushed out the wall instantly.
Going onto the fence gives Link enough height to be able to roll onto Zelda. I place down a bomb just before the Phantom Eye spawns, which makes the bomb explosion less scary, as it won't hit the Phantom Eye. While the Phantom Eye is on Link, Zelda tries to attack it, so we have Zelda walk against the wall before the bomb explodes, as otherwise I would not be able to clip towards the right.
A roll + item menu will then get me slightly inside the wall. On the very next frame, after closing the menu, I want the bomb to explode.
The bomb explosion hits Zelda and interrupts Link actually getting onto Zelda, so the game instead just drops Link wherever he currently is. On this exact frame, Link is high enough to make it onto the wall.
This whole time, the Phantom Eye is on Link. Fortunately for us, the Phantom Eye actually follows Link everywhere, even out of bounds, although it needs a few seconds to update properly. Shaking it off will then allow Zelda to warp to it, putting her onto the wall as well.
From here, it is simply walking towards the stars at the top of the room, skipping the entire Phantom Trials, as well as 2 small keys.
If you bring a key from ToS4/5 here, all you have to do in ToS6 now is get a Warp Phantom and perform this trick. It skips the entire dungeons, besides the fight that follows afterwards.
I've tried this a lot before, but with different angles that put the door further away from the camera, but none of them worked. I'm not sure what's so special about looking top-left.
Anyway, this skip isn't that big, but the puzzle in this room is really bad. This method is probably slightly less frustrating to go for. And still faster by a good amount.
The trick in question is at 00:50, where I blow Zelda onto the sand, but create sand pillars below her before she can touch the floor.
Normally, of course, she would simply sink into the sand and respawn back on land, but by quickly creating a sand pillar under her while she's still in the air, we can create a path for her to walk on, meaning we can get her to the platform on the other side without the Warp Phantom.
Interestingly, this is only useful because we can also skip the Wrecker Phantom on the other side. Usually, you would need to destroy all the blocks on the right side and warp over there with the Warp Phantom. Since we can bypass all that, we don't need the Warp Phantom on the right side, allowing us to also skip it on the left side.
It's also cool to see that the "Phantom Trials", where they want you to use all the different phantoms, can now be completed by only ever getting the Torch Phantom.
Will any of these ever be RTA viable, find out next time.
This was honestly just a random idea I had, and I certainly did not expect it to work out. Kind of crazy.
Anyway, this is still really precise and you need a couple of visual cues, but once you've learned them, this is almost trivial.
The boomerang method ended up being way too difficult for RTA, mainly because the door hitbox extends slightly backwards (the boomerang clanks really easily before hitting the switch), so it's nice to have a much easier method now.
It still sucks that you can't skip a key by doing something on the right side, as we have to waste some time to go up that platform again. But alas, this is still better than getting the other key the normal way.
Setup: Hug the left wall and watch for the bottom line of the triangle in the top right corner by pulling out the boomerang.
Once you see it, throw a bomb roughly towards the left side of the first triangle block (https://i.imgur.com/3rdUw9W.png). There's a couple of different spots that work as well, I would recommend trying out some angles and using what you feel is the easiest.
Lastly, equip the whirlwind and aim as far right/down as possible, if you're slightly too far up, the bomb will either not make it to the switch, or fall down onto the switch and explode immediately (in which case this trick is still possible, but you have a lot less time to hit the other switch).
Anyway, there's no use for this as the methods to achieve this are extremely limited. I wish I could've found a way to make Link stay in midair, but so far no luck.
As it stands though, this simply shortens the puzzle on the left side and skips doing a short trip back to 25F.
It's a little hard for me to estimate the time save, but it could still be around 40s-1m, so still not bad.
What happens here is that switching the cameras between Zelda and Link deloads the door, so the arrow can fly through. However, you have to switch back to Link right before the arrow hits the eye, as this has to happen on camera for it to register.
There are a couple of interesting camera tricks in Phantom Hourglass, so I thought I should see if I can make anything work in Spirit Tracks too.
Unsure about more appliactions for this as of yet, but I will check soon enough.
The position of the enemy is actually a little precise, but luckily the stun lasts quite long. With a good setup, I do believe this should be doable in RTA.
I expect this to save around 2 minutes for the TAS, and of course slightly more for RTA.
It saves quite a lot mainly because we don't have to use the dumb rope thingies to travel to the mini boss fight (and back).
As usual, I confirmed this on WiiU as well.
Seems like it is RTA viable, mainly because pause buffering in this game is quite good.
Anyway, clipping up the block is fairly easy, you just need to position yourself between it and the sand, then you make it fall over to you and you clip it up easily.
Then, you can do a bomb boost (uses a roll) to boost yourself to the fence.
Fences in this game generally go a bit higher than they look, so they're very similar to the ceiling height-wise.
Another precise bomb jump (no roll needed for this one, but the angle is precise) let's you cover just enough distance to get up the wall.
In the TAS, this should save roughly 1:35 - 1:40 minutes when optimized.
In RTA, depending on how possible this is and what setups we'd use, I'd estimate a 2 minute time save at the very least.
Doing this room normally takes
TAS: 2 minutes
RTA: Roughly 3 minutes
Really_Tall made a video a couple years ago where they killed the rat, the only step missing was actually getting the key. In this game though, the boomerang will collect things on its way back, so it's possible to get it.
This itself is around 50-60s faster than doing the puzzle, however, because we have so many keys now, I don't know if we even have to get this key.
But probably.
Similar to the Small Key Skip in Tower of Spirits 13F, the same boomerang method can be used here. It is, however, a lot more difficult and precise.
With this, we can keep 1 key from these rooms and use it later on to skip another small key that takes almost 3 mintues to get.
Unfortunately, in a later room, a cutscene triggers that makes us spawn inside a room we'd skip, so we have to do that room and death warp out, losing about 1:30 minutes.
For more information about the boomerang trick, see my last video's discrption: youtube.com/watch?v=v8p2yiB9eLw
Important info to understand the trick:
The height of the boomerang corresponds to the height Link had when drawing a line.
Drawing a line when Link is on a platform will naturally throw the boomerang at that height, and the same goes for throwing it when on the ground.
This, for example, means that the boomerang can't target a switch on the ground if you're standing on the platform, since they have different heights.
However, by first standing on a platform, drawing a line, and then falling down the platform, we can draw lines on both heights, meaning the boomerang will take a path it's normally not supposed so. In this case we first draw a line over the wall, and then a line on the ground to hit the switch.
How it works:
First, I walk 1 pixel off the ledge and pull out the boomerang right after. This will make Link fall down while keeping out the boomerang in mid-air.
While still at the very top, I draw a large line towards the left and over the wall before falling down. The line has to cross the wall on the left side before Link fell too much, and has to be large enough to give the boomerang enough height.
(When you throw it up high from the ground, it first has to travel some distance before reaching the original height of the line.)
Then, after touching the ground, the boomerang can target the switch, since we are on the same height as the switch again.
Releasing the boomerang now will result in it rising towards the original height, flying over the wall, descending to the height after fully falling down, and then hitting the switch.
Zelda has to be in position to hit the other switch, as they are timed.
Getting a key for this door actually only takes about 10 seconds or so, but luckily we can keep the key for later floors of the tower, meaning we can potentially skip huge puzzles.
I will update this again once we know which key door will save the most time.
Something to note is that under normal circumstances, you can't really whirl Zelda all the way across the gap.
There are, however, 2 different methods to achieve this:
1. Whirl Zelda off the gap, use another whirlwind that will be in front of zelda (but close enough to still hit her) that hits her the second she respawns (this is done in the current TAS to shorten this puzzle)
2. Spawning a whirlwind at a very specific pixel (once again, far away from zelda but still close enough to hit her) while sending the whirlwind at an angle will also result in a longer travel time.
This can be achieved by either:
- Using a sword stab to slightly clip diagonally into zelda and then quickly using the whirlwind at an angle before clipping out
- Falling into a gap at the exact right pixel and using the whirlwind at an angle when exactly at Zelda's height (else the whirlwind won't hit her)
This second method is quite convenient here, since we never have to touch the floor, which ultimately allows us to respawn on Zelda on the other side.
I'm going to be honest, the fact that this even works is a miracle. You have to work so hard to find any time savers in this game, so when I initially theorized this, I was sure the game would find a way to make this impossible. Well, it still is pretty impossible for RTA. At least I can't see anyone pulling this off.
I didn't show the end super correctly.
Ideally, you'd keep one of the guards outside the sand so that they can hit you right after activating the switches to respawn at the stairs - this is already done in the TAS, in case you're curious.
For those who don't know, the puzzle includes:
- warping with Zelda to the alarm thingy in the smog
- activating the switch for the bridge over the sand
- walking to the bottom right with zelda and bottom left with link to activate the switch tiles in order to switch places
- warping back to the alarm thingy with zelda
- walking all the way down again to activate the switch to get rid of the spikes
- activating another switch with zelda for the other spikes (can be skipped with a damage boost through the boulders)
- only then can you finally walk up to the switches
Then: slash to clone, slash again after walking a tiny bit and release great spin at the torch (not before torch, Link's full sprite should be at the torch or slightly past the middle)
Depending on the rupee drops, slashes in the Darknut room:
3 bottom half: 1 slash
3 bottom, 1 top right: 2 slashes
3 bottom, 1 top middle: 3 slashes
2 bottom, 1 top half: 3 slashes
2 bottom, 1 top right: 4 slashes (unless you waited for the nothing drop on the left, then 3)
1 middle, 1 top right: 0 slashes
2 bottom: 1 slash
Last 2 are less likely, but depending on your slashes they can happen.
For Darknuts:
After the 2 slashes, do another slash downwards and wait for a darknut to charge at you. If the left one charges first, walk right then down. If the right one charges first, walk left then down.
Last Vaati 2 phase is inconsistent as usual, but doing two slashes where I do them should give you a workable pattern.
Usually, you have to shrink first and activate the Armos to move it out of the way, however, with a precise roll when the other Armos deactivates right next to it, you can clip slightly into the bottom part of the Armos (upper half does not work). This lets you reach the lever, resulting in a faster strat for the first small key.
The left tile right next to the wall is used to make the Armos deactive immediately, instead of waiting for its timer to get to 0. Those tiles are out of the "Armos zone", so stepping on it will deactivate it.
We expect this to be mostly TAS only, where it would save around 20-25 seconds over the last strats used.
Technically, a manipulation for RTA could be made, however, some of the inputs for this are very precise, and it would most likely be very difficult to execute for a time save of not more than 10 seconds (due to an additional S+Q). Of course, I will give an update on this soon enough. It is very possible that a good manipulation will make this quite feasible for RTA.
There's a 7 frame window to get hit by the beetle + clip, however, since there's not good visual cues or anything, it's quite risky to go for in a run.
We probably won't see many people doing this, unless it's a bad run anyway.
It seems that to get a diagonal angle, the hitbox has to make move Link diagonally before he starts running.
Place a bomb and hop on the ladder
Walk down just a tiny bit
On the 3rd bomb flash, jump and hold up until you land
Once you land, don't hold anything
After clip:
Get rooster (position himself near stairs beforehand)
A bit up, and then hold right
You can either hold up a tiny bit longer to trigger the loading zone directly, or you can just clip out on the right side
1st try should save around 30-35 second, but we have to find a replacement for the kinstone we usually get here
very much improvable, missed vaati manip but still had a good vaati 2, lost lots of time to sloppiness everywhere after deepwood shrine -- Watch live at twitch.tv/toadswoot