Godless Engineer | He Is WRONG About Sukkah 52a-b and Zechariah 12:10 || Richard Carrier vs Kipp Davis @godlessengineer | Uploaded May 2024 | Updated October 2024, 17 hours ago.
I sit with Dr. Richard Carrier in this video to explore his compelling argument about the early Jewish expectation of a dying and rising Messiah. Dr. Carrier references the Babylonian Talmud, particularly Sukkot 52a-b and Zechariah 12:10, to support his claim that these Jewish texts predate Christianity in depicting a Messiah who is pierced to death. We delve into the nuances of his approach, discussing why his argument stands up to scrutiny despite criticisms.
We address concerns that Dr. Carrier summarizes rather than directly quotes the Talmudic tractates, potentially leading to misunderstandings. Dr. Carrier explains that summarizing is a standard scholarly practice that highlights broader implications without getting bogged down in extensive quotations.
Critics argue that Dr. Carrier's reliance on the chronology of these texts overlooks the broader historical and cultural context, suggesting that Jewish traditions could have evolved over time. Dr. Carrier counters this by emphasizing the independence of these Jewish traditions from Christian influences, demonstrating that the messianic concepts likely have roots in earlier Jewish thought.
A significant part of our discussion focuses on the improbability of later Jews adopting interpretations that support Christian claims. Dr. Carrier argues that the intense rivalry and doctrinal differences between early Christians and Jews make such adoption unlikely. He supports his case by examining historical and textual evidence that suggests these messianic concepts were already present in Jewish thought before Christianity.
We also tackle the criticism that Dr. Carrier's probability argument is flawed and that he confuses the earliest citation of a tradition with its origin. Dr. Carrier clarifies that his approach considers the broader historical and textual evidence, not just the earliest citations, to build a robust argument for a pre-Christian origin of these traditions.
Additionally, we discuss the relevance of later texts like the Sefer Zerubbabel, which illustrate the persistence and evolution of earlier traditions despite being from later periods. These texts reflect the ongoing significance of the dying Messiah theme in Jewish thought, supporting Dr. Carrier's argument.
Finally, we emphasize the importance of methodology in scholarly debates. Dr. Carrier shares insights into his methodological approach, highlighting the critical assessment of sources, consideration of historical context, and logical analysis. This discussion aims to help viewers appreciate the robustness of his conclusions and apply similar rigor in their own studies.
Join us for an in-depth exploration of these fascinating topics. Please like, share, and subscribe if you found this discussion insightful. Don't forget to hit the bell icon for notifications on future videos. Your support helps me continue to bring you thorough and critical content.
Original Video: [Video Link Here]
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I sit with Dr. Richard Carrier in this video to explore his compelling argument about the early Jewish expectation of a dying and rising Messiah. Dr. Carrier references the Babylonian Talmud, particularly Sukkot 52a-b and Zechariah 12:10, to support his claim that these Jewish texts predate Christianity in depicting a Messiah who is pierced to death. We delve into the nuances of his approach, discussing why his argument stands up to scrutiny despite criticisms.
We address concerns that Dr. Carrier summarizes rather than directly quotes the Talmudic tractates, potentially leading to misunderstandings. Dr. Carrier explains that summarizing is a standard scholarly practice that highlights broader implications without getting bogged down in extensive quotations.
Critics argue that Dr. Carrier's reliance on the chronology of these texts overlooks the broader historical and cultural context, suggesting that Jewish traditions could have evolved over time. Dr. Carrier counters this by emphasizing the independence of these Jewish traditions from Christian influences, demonstrating that the messianic concepts likely have roots in earlier Jewish thought.
A significant part of our discussion focuses on the improbability of later Jews adopting interpretations that support Christian claims. Dr. Carrier argues that the intense rivalry and doctrinal differences between early Christians and Jews make such adoption unlikely. He supports his case by examining historical and textual evidence that suggests these messianic concepts were already present in Jewish thought before Christianity.
We also tackle the criticism that Dr. Carrier's probability argument is flawed and that he confuses the earliest citation of a tradition with its origin. Dr. Carrier clarifies that his approach considers the broader historical and textual evidence, not just the earliest citations, to build a robust argument for a pre-Christian origin of these traditions.
Additionally, we discuss the relevance of later texts like the Sefer Zerubbabel, which illustrate the persistence and evolution of earlier traditions despite being from later periods. These texts reflect the ongoing significance of the dying Messiah theme in Jewish thought, supporting Dr. Carrier's argument.
Finally, we emphasize the importance of methodology in scholarly debates. Dr. Carrier shares insights into his methodological approach, highlighting the critical assessment of sources, consideration of historical context, and logical analysis. This discussion aims to help viewers appreciate the robustness of his conclusions and apply similar rigor in their own studies.
Join us for an in-depth exploration of these fascinating topics. Please like, share, and subscribe if you found this discussion insightful. Don't forget to hit the bell icon for notifications on future videos. Your support helps me continue to bring you thorough and critical content.
Original Video: [Video Link Here]
Daily Bible Podcast: ge.hopp.to/DailyBiblePodcast
#atheism #christianity #atheist
Subscribe to this channel: ge.hopp.to/SubToGe
Join the Skeptic Mafia: ge.hopp.to/JoinSkepticMafia
Available Deals
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get 15% off Ridge Wallets: godlessengineering.com/ridgedeal
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Merch
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Download CHRESTUS: ge.hopp.to/CHRESTUS
Get your "Citation Fucking Needed" Shirt: ge.hopp.to/citationfuckingneeded
"got evidence?" shirt: ge.hopp.to/GotEvidenceShirt
"btw, evolution is a fact" shirt: ge.hopp.to/BTWEvolutionIsAFact
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Discord Server: ge.hopp.to/JoinGEDiscord
