Uploaded April 2026 | Updated September 2026, 11 hours ago
Clara Mattei and her first book, The Capital Order, were hugely important to Real Progressives as we began to expand our focus from Modern Monetary Theory and investigate the political economy of the capitalist system.
Now she joins Steve to talk about her new book, Escape from Capitalism. They discuss how capitalism maintains itself through market dependence, exploitation, and austerity, and why escaping it requires building alternative institutions rather than relying on elections or reforms within the capitalist state.
Steve and Clara are largely aligned in their critique of the system, but there are some disagreements. They debate aspects of MMT, including how interest rates, state spending, and monetary sovereignty function across different contexts. Their differences open up a deeper discussion about the limits of reform, the state’s role, and what meaningful change would require.
There is a reason elections cannot deliver emancipation. The capitalist state is structurally designed to insulate elites from popular control. Clara describes her practical organizing work with FREE (Forum for Real Economic Emancipation) in Tulsa, building horizontal assemblies, participatory budgeting campaigns, community land trusts, and mutual aid.
Steve touches on the concept of de-commodifying basic needs (housing, healthcare, food), to break market dependence. But then, capitalism would be unworkable.
Clara E. Mattei is Professor of Economics at The University of Tulsa and the Founding President of FREE: Forum for Real Economic Emancipation. She was previously associate professor at The New School for Social Research Economics Department and has been a fellow of the Institute for Advanced Studies, Princeton. Her research contributes to the analysis and history of capitalism, exploring the critical relation between economic ideas and technocratic policy making.
Clara is author of The Capital Order: How Economists Invented Austerity and Paved the Way to Fascism (University of Chicago Press, 2022), and the recently published Escape from Capitalism (Allen Lane, Penguin Press, and Simon & Schuster, January 2026), which will soon be translated into multiple languages, including French, German, and Italian.
Learn more @ freefreeforum.org, where she hosts the weekly FREE podcast.
@claraemattei on X
#capitalism #austerity #learnmmt #politicaleconomy #exploitation #labor #mutualaid #economics
Chapters:
0:00 – Intro music & graphics
0:46 – Steve's solo intro: Clara Mattei & her books
2:20 – Welcome to the show / Steve's praise for "The Capital Order"
3:10 – Clara's trilogy: What "Escape from Capitalism" is and why now
4:21 – Origins of the FREE Forum & praxis over theory
7:20 – Building democracy on the ground in Tulsa, Oklahoma
8:01 – Steve's MMT evolution: From technocrat to capital theorist
9:32 – How MMT reveals the tools of war used against working people
10:42 – Dialogue: Interest rates, government spending & the Global South
12:50 – Decolonizing economics & Palestine as a lens on capitalism
14:34 – Market dependence as capitalism's invisible foundation
21:40 – The role of mainstream economics in hiding exploitation
27:10 – Systemic corruption: Why elections can't fix capitalism
29:13 – Rosa Luxemburg & "reform for revolution"
38:06 – Participatory budgeting in Tulsa: Dual power in action
50:23 – Community organizing: Assemblies, flyering & mutual aid
56:37 – Clara's closing: Open a FREE/Real Progressives chapter near you
58:17 – Steve's outro & call for donations
59:07 – Outro music & end card
Weaponize Knowledge with Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
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We believe all materials used in this video fall under Fair Use as defined in Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976.
#mmt
Weaponize Knowledge with Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Please help our Real Progressives efforts in spreading and become a monthly donor!
At PayPal
paypal.me/RealProgressives/25
At Patreon
patreon.com/realprogressives
Write for Real Progressives
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Visit our website:
realprogressives.org
Listen to our podcast:
realprogressives.org/macro-n-cheese-podcast
We believe all materials used in this video fall under Fair Use as defined in Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976.
Clara Mattei and her first book, The Capital Order, were hugely important to Real Progressives as we began to expand our focus from Modern Monetary Theory and investigate the political economy of the capitalist system.
Now she joins Steve to talk about her new book, Escape from Capitalism. They discuss how capitalism maintains itself through market dependence, exploitation, and austerity, and why escaping it requires building alternative institutions rather than relying on elections or reforms within the capitalist state.
Steve and Clara are largely aligned in their critique of the system, but there are some disagreements. They debate aspects of MMT, including how interest rates, state spending, and monetary sovereignty function across different contexts. Their differences open up a deeper discussion about the limits of reform, the state’s role, and what meaningful change would require.
There is a reason elections cannot deliver emancipation. The capitalist state is structurally designed to insulate elites from popular control. Clara describes her practical organizing work with FREE (Forum for Real Economic Emancipation) in Tulsa, building horizontal assemblies, participatory budgeting campaigns, community land trusts, and mutual aid.
Steve touches on the concept of de-commodifying basic needs (housing, healthcare, food), to break market dependence. But then, capitalism would be unworkable.
Clara E. Mattei is Professor of Economics at The University of Tulsa and the Founding President of FREE: Forum for Real Economic Emancipation. She was previously associate professor at The New School for Social Research Economics Department and has been a fellow of the Institute for Advanced Studies, Princeton. Her research contributes to the analysis and history of capitalism, exploring the critical relation between economic ideas and technocratic policy making.
Clara is author of The Capital Order: How Economists Invented Austerity and Paved the Way to Fascism (University of Chicago Press, 2022), and the recently published Escape from Capitalism (Allen Lane, Penguin Press, and Simon & Schuster, January 2026), which will soon be translated into multiple languages, including French, German, and Italian.
Learn more @ freefreeforum.org, where she hosts the weekly FREE podcast.
@claraemattei on X
#capitalism #austerity #learnmmt #politicaleconomy #exploitation #labor #mutualaid #economics
Chapters:
0:00 – Intro music & graphics
0:46 – Steve's solo intro: Clara Mattei & her books
2:20 – Welcome to the show / Steve's praise for "The Capital Order"
3:10 – Clara's trilogy: What "Escape from Capitalism" is and why now
4:21 – Origins of the FREE Forum & praxis over theory
7:20 – Building democracy on the ground in Tulsa, Oklahoma
8:01 – Steve's MMT evolution: From technocrat to capital theorist
9:32 – How MMT reveals the tools of war used against working people
10:42 – Dialogue: Interest rates, government spending & the Global South
12:50 – Decolonizing economics & Palestine as a lens on capitalism
14:34 – Market dependence as capitalism's invisible foundation
21:40 – The role of mainstream economics in hiding exploitation
27:10 – Systemic corruption: Why elections can't fix capitalism
29:13 – Rosa Luxemburg & "reform for revolution"
38:06 – Participatory budgeting in Tulsa: Dual power in action
50:23 – Community organizing: Assemblies, flyering & mutual aid
56:37 – Clara's closing: Open a FREE/Real Progressives chapter near you
58:17 – Steve's outro & call for donations
59:07 – Outro music & end card
Weaponize Knowledge with Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Please help our Real Progressives efforts in spreading and become a monthly donor!
At PayPal
paypal.me/RealProgressives/25
At Patreon
patreon.com/realprogressives
Donorbox
donorbox.org/each-one-teach-one-3
Write for Real Progressives
realprogressives.org/submit-an-article
Visit our website:
realprogressives.org
Listen to our podcast:
realprogressives.org/macro-n-cheese-podcast
Subscribe to our Substack:
realprogressives.substack.com
We believe all materials used in this video fall under Fair Use as defined in Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976.
#mmt
Weaponize Knowledge with Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)
Please help our Real Progressives efforts in spreading and become a monthly donor!
At PayPal
paypal.me/RealProgressives/25
At Patreon
patreon.com/realprogressives
Write for Real Progressives
realprogressives.org/submit-an-article
Visit our website:
realprogressives.org
Listen to our podcast:
realprogressives.org/macro-n-cheese-podcast
We believe all materials used in this video fall under Fair Use as defined in Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976.
