Uploaded December 2025 | Updated September 2026, 1 week ago
Today on The Curious Bartender Podcast, I’m joined by Dr Johnny Drain — materials scientist turned fermentation obsessive, flavour innovator, and co-founder of the cocoa-free chocolate company pushing the industry to rethink everything it thought it knew about cacao.
Johnny’s one of those rare thinkers who can sit comfortably in the worlds of cutting-edge science and high-end hospitality. He’s worked with some of the most boundary-pushing restaurants and bars on the planet, helping them unlock new flavours, reduce waste, and harness the incredible power of microbes. His new book, Adventures in Fermentation, is part manifesto, part manual, part love-letter to the invisible life that shapes what we eat and drink.
In this episode, we get into the evolution of chocolate, the future of fermentation, how microbes actually make flavour, why pasteurisation isn’t the enemy, what gut science is really telling us, and what a “sound-tuned” ferment might taste like. It’s a conversation about flavour, sustainability, identity, and the weird, wonderful magic of transformation.
Settle in — this is a fascinating deep dive with one of the most interesting flavour thinkers working today.
00:00 What Does a Material Scientist Do? A Scientific Approach to Food & Drink
04:30 Understanding Fermentation At a Macro and Microbe Level: Cooking & Malting, Enzymes, History, Microbes and Conditions: pH, Humidity, Temperature
12:30 The Remarkable Exploitation of Cocoa Beans and Coffee
20:10 Undiscovered Fermented Foods and the Microbial Interactions That Might Create Them, Scale of Fermentation, Categorisation
26:10 Why is Fermentation Having a Moment?
28:50 The Spectrum of Kombucha Quality in the Marketplace, Regulation
32:00 How Can Fermented Food be Scaled for Large Scale Food Manufacture? Challenges, Knowledge, Perception
34:40 Pasteurisation vs. Live Food: Latest Research on Gut Health, Post-Biotic vs. Pro-Biotic, 47:20 Body as a Warzone, Qorum Sensing, The Magic of Microbes
52:40 How Sensitive Are Microbes to Sound? Ultrasound for Extraction, Making Microbes Vibe
59:40 Knowing What We Don’t Know: Technology and Innovation
1:01:24 Can You Make Chocolate Without Cocoa Beans? Substitutes, Environment, Ethics of Chocolate
1:14:00 Perception of Ultra Processed Food, Regulation & Transparency
1:17:10 The War on Germs - Changing Perceptions of Microbes, Symbiotic Relationship with Microbes
1:23:42 Unexpected Flavours Derived from Fermentation: Bacon Satsuma, Fermentation for Waste Reduction, Moulds & Proteins
1:28:00 Predicting Fermentation Outcomes, Relinquishing Control
1:35:10 Adventures In Fermentation Book - Writing, Writing Techniques
1:38:00 The Future of Flavour & Food
📷 Follow me on Instagram - instagram.com/tristanstephenson
📚 I've written quite a few books on spirits and cocktails - thecuriousbartender.com
Today on The Curious Bartender Podcast, I’m joined by Dr Johnny Drain — materials scientist turned fermentation obsessive, flavour innovator, and co-founder of the cocoa-free chocolate company pushing the industry to rethink everything it thought it knew about cacao.
Johnny’s one of those rare thinkers who can sit comfortably in the worlds of cutting-edge science and high-end hospitality. He’s worked with some of the most boundary-pushing restaurants and bars on the planet, helping them unlock new flavours, reduce waste, and harness the incredible power of microbes. His new book, Adventures in Fermentation, is part manifesto, part manual, part love-letter to the invisible life that shapes what we eat and drink.
In this episode, we get into the evolution of chocolate, the future of fermentation, how microbes actually make flavour, why pasteurisation isn’t the enemy, what gut science is really telling us, and what a “sound-tuned” ferment might taste like. It’s a conversation about flavour, sustainability, identity, and the weird, wonderful magic of transformation.
Settle in — this is a fascinating deep dive with one of the most interesting flavour thinkers working today.
00:00 What Does a Material Scientist Do? A Scientific Approach to Food & Drink
04:30 Understanding Fermentation At a Macro and Microbe Level: Cooking & Malting, Enzymes, History, Microbes and Conditions: pH, Humidity, Temperature
12:30 The Remarkable Exploitation of Cocoa Beans and Coffee
20:10 Undiscovered Fermented Foods and the Microbial Interactions That Might Create Them, Scale of Fermentation, Categorisation
26:10 Why is Fermentation Having a Moment?
28:50 The Spectrum of Kombucha Quality in the Marketplace, Regulation
32:00 How Can Fermented Food be Scaled for Large Scale Food Manufacture? Challenges, Knowledge, Perception
34:40 Pasteurisation vs. Live Food: Latest Research on Gut Health, Post-Biotic vs. Pro-Biotic, 47:20 Body as a Warzone, Qorum Sensing, The Magic of Microbes
52:40 How Sensitive Are Microbes to Sound? Ultrasound for Extraction, Making Microbes Vibe
59:40 Knowing What We Don’t Know: Technology and Innovation
1:01:24 Can You Make Chocolate Without Cocoa Beans? Substitutes, Environment, Ethics of Chocolate
1:14:00 Perception of Ultra Processed Food, Regulation & Transparency
1:17:10 The War on Germs - Changing Perceptions of Microbes, Symbiotic Relationship with Microbes
1:23:42 Unexpected Flavours Derived from Fermentation: Bacon Satsuma, Fermentation for Waste Reduction, Moulds & Proteins
1:28:00 Predicting Fermentation Outcomes, Relinquishing Control
1:35:10 Adventures In Fermentation Book - Writing, Writing Techniques
1:38:00 The Future of Flavour & Food
📷 Follow me on Instagram - instagram.com/tristanstephenson
📚 I've written quite a few books on spirits and cocktails - thecuriousbartender.com
