Uploaded September 2025 | Updated September 2026, 2 weeks ago
The Pragmatic Engineer Podcast is back with the Fall 2025 season. Expect new episodes to be published on most Wednesdays, looking ahead.
Code Complete is one of the most enduring books on software engineering. Steve McConnell wrote the 900-page handbook just five years into his career, capturing what he wished he’d known when starting out. Decades later, the lessons remain relevant, and Code Complete remains a best-seller.
In this episode, we talk about what has aged well, what needed updating in the second edition, and the broader career principles Steve has developed along the way. From his “career pyramid” model to his critique of “lily pad hopping,” and why periods of working in fast-paced, all-in environments can be so rewarding, the emphasis throughout is on taking ownership of your career and making deliberate choices.
We also discuss:
• Top-down vs. bottom-up design and why most engineers default to one approach
• Why rewriting code multiple times makes it better
• How taking a year off to write Code Complete crystallized key lessons
• The 3 areas software designers need to understand, and why focusing only on technology may be the most limiting
• And much more!
Steve rarely gives interviews, so I hope you enjoy this conversation, which we recorded in Seattle.
—
Brought to you by:
• Statsig — The unified platform for flags, analytics, experiments, and more. Statsig built a complete set of data tools that allow engineering teams to measure the impact of their work. This toolkit is SO valuable to so many teams, that OpenAI - who was a huge user of Statsig - decided to acquire the company, the news announced last week. Talk about validation! Check out Statsig statsig.com/pragmatic
• Linear – The system for modern product development. Here’s an interesting story: OpenAI switched to Linear as a way to establish a shared vocabulary between teams. Every project now follows the same lifecycle, uses the same labels, and moves through the same states. Try Linear for yourself https://linear.app/pragmatic?utm_source=gergely&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=pragmatic-engineer
—
The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:
• What changed in 50 years of computing newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/what-changed-in-50-years-of-computing
• The past and future of modern backend practices newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-past-and-future-of-backend-practices
• The Philosophy of Software Design – with John Ousterhout newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-philosophy-of-software-design
• AI tools for software engineers, but without the hype – with Simon Willison (co-creator of Django) newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/ai-tools-for-software-engineers-simon-willison
• TDD, AI agents and coding – with Kent Beck newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/tdd-ai-agents-and-coding-with-kent
—
Where to find Steve McConnell:
• X: https://x.com/stevemconstrux
• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/stevemcc
• Website: stevemcconnell.com
Where to find Gergely Orosz:
• X: https://x.com/GergelyOrosz
• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/gergelyorosz
• Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/gergely.pragmaticengineer.com
• Newsletter and blog: pragmaticengineer.com
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Intro
(01:31) How and why Steve wrote Code Complete
(08:08) What code construction is and how it differs from software development
(11:12) Top-down vs. bottom-up design approach
(14:46) Why design documents frustrate some engineers
(16:50) The case for rewriting everything three times
(20:15) Steve’s career before and after Code Complete
(27:47) Steve’s career advice
(44:38) Three areas software designers need to understand
(48:07) Advice when becoming a manager, as a developer
(53:02) The importance of managing your energy
(57:07) Early Microsoft and why startups are a culture of intense focus
(1:04:14) What changed in the second edition of Code Complete
(1:10:50) AI’s impact on software development: Steve’s take
(1:17:45) Code reviews and GenAI
(1:19:58) Why engineers are becoming more full-stack
(1:21:40) Could AI be the exception to “no silver bullets?”
(1:26:31) Steve’s advice for engineers on building a meaningful career
—
See the transcript and other references from the episode at newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast
—
Production and marketing by penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@pragmaticengineer.com.
The Pragmatic Engineer Podcast is back with the Fall 2025 season. Expect new episodes to be published on most Wednesdays, looking ahead.
Code Complete is one of the most enduring books on software engineering. Steve McConnell wrote the 900-page handbook just five years into his career, capturing what he wished he’d known when starting out. Decades later, the lessons remain relevant, and Code Complete remains a best-seller.
In this episode, we talk about what has aged well, what needed updating in the second edition, and the broader career principles Steve has developed along the way. From his “career pyramid” model to his critique of “lily pad hopping,” and why periods of working in fast-paced, all-in environments can be so rewarding, the emphasis throughout is on taking ownership of your career and making deliberate choices.
We also discuss:
• Top-down vs. bottom-up design and why most engineers default to one approach
• Why rewriting code multiple times makes it better
• How taking a year off to write Code Complete crystallized key lessons
• The 3 areas software designers need to understand, and why focusing only on technology may be the most limiting
• And much more!
Steve rarely gives interviews, so I hope you enjoy this conversation, which we recorded in Seattle.
—
Brought to you by:
• Statsig — The unified platform for flags, analytics, experiments, and more. Statsig built a complete set of data tools that allow engineering teams to measure the impact of their work. This toolkit is SO valuable to so many teams, that OpenAI - who was a huge user of Statsig - decided to acquire the company, the news announced last week. Talk about validation! Check out Statsig statsig.com/pragmatic
• Linear – The system for modern product development. Here’s an interesting story: OpenAI switched to Linear as a way to establish a shared vocabulary between teams. Every project now follows the same lifecycle, uses the same labels, and moves through the same states. Try Linear for yourself https://linear.app/pragmatic?utm_source=gergely&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=pragmatic-engineer
—
The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:
• What changed in 50 years of computing newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/what-changed-in-50-years-of-computing
• The past and future of modern backend practices newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-past-and-future-of-backend-practices
• The Philosophy of Software Design – with John Ousterhout newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/the-philosophy-of-software-design
• AI tools for software engineers, but without the hype – with Simon Willison (co-creator of Django) newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/ai-tools-for-software-engineers-simon-willison
• TDD, AI agents and coding – with Kent Beck newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/p/tdd-ai-agents-and-coding-with-kent
—
Where to find Steve McConnell:
• X: https://x.com/stevemconstrux
• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/stevemcc
• Website: stevemcconnell.com
Where to find Gergely Orosz:
• X: https://x.com/GergelyOrosz
• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/gergelyorosz
• Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/gergely.pragmaticengineer.com
• Newsletter and blog: pragmaticengineer.com
—
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Intro
(01:31) How and why Steve wrote Code Complete
(08:08) What code construction is and how it differs from software development
(11:12) Top-down vs. bottom-up design approach
(14:46) Why design documents frustrate some engineers
(16:50) The case for rewriting everything three times
(20:15) Steve’s career before and after Code Complete
(27:47) Steve’s career advice
(44:38) Three areas software designers need to understand
(48:07) Advice when becoming a manager, as a developer
(53:02) The importance of managing your energy
(57:07) Early Microsoft and why startups are a culture of intense focus
(1:04:14) What changed in the second edition of Code Complete
(1:10:50) AI’s impact on software development: Steve’s take
(1:17:45) Code reviews and GenAI
(1:19:58) Why engineers are becoming more full-stack
(1:21:40) Could AI be the exception to “no silver bullets?”
(1:26:31) Steve’s advice for engineers on building a meaningful career
—
See the transcript and other references from the episode at newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast
—
Production and marketing by penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@pragmaticengineer.com.
