Uploaded March 2025 | Updated September 2026, 3 weeks ago
How does Europe get cheap energy again? Are climate goals at odds with the need to remain economically competitive? Are we about to see an empowered and emboldened Europe, ready to take on China and the US?
Barely five years into the 2020s, this decade is already shaping up to be one of the most turbulent since the Second World War. As we record this episode, the US has just slapped 25% tariffs on steel and aluminium, prompting swift retaliation from Europe and Canada.
The energy landscape is just as volatile. While the US seems set on spending the next four years as a semi-rogue petrostate—acting as if climate change were an afterthought—China is seizing the moment. It’s doubling down on EVs and electrification at home, tightening its grip on clean energy supply chains, and dominating global exports of solar panels, batteries, EVs, wind turbines, and even cables. In doing so, Beijing is cementing its status as the world’s premier electro-state.
This leaves Europe at a crossroads. How does the EU tackle sky-high energy prices while reducing its reliance on US LNG and Chinese clean tech? Can it craft a compelling narrative to counter the rising tide of populism that’s circling ever closer to the Berlaymont building in Brussels?
To help us unpack these critical questions, we’re joined by Nikos Tsafos, Greece’s recently promoted Deputy Energy Minister. His portfolio spans energy and emissions, and he collaborates with policymakers across transport and industry—not just in Greece, but throughout the EU.
Thank you to Nikos Tsafos for providing the graphs showing Greece’s energy transition.
Leadership Circle:
Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.
Links:
• Nikos Tsafos' Website: nikostsafos.com
• Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis’ letter to the President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen regarding the EU energy market: https://www.primeminister.gr/en/2024/09/13/34887
• Energy System of Greece: iea.org/countries/greece
• Yanis Varoufakis: Power, Markets & Power Markets - Ep104: youtube.com/watch?v=PLbm8fg08hc
• Audioblog 14: Generative AI – The Power and the Glory: youtube.com/watch?v=OwZ2iNh133A
Chapters:
00:00 - Intro
04:30 - The 30,000-foot View of Europe
09:20 - Are Renewables Making Energy More Expensive?
16:00 - Is the US Still Friendly?
20:30 - Energy & Security
24:30 - Europe’s Energy Addiction
29:30 - Are Renewables That Cheap?
35:00 - Climate Vs Competition
42:00 - Simpler Targets
46:30 - Tradeoffs
51:30 - Greece’s Transition
55:00 - The Challenges
01:00:00 - AI & Data Centres
01:04:50 - Outro
How does Europe get cheap energy again? Are climate goals at odds with the need to remain economically competitive? Are we about to see an empowered and emboldened Europe, ready to take on China and the US?
Barely five years into the 2020s, this decade is already shaping up to be one of the most turbulent since the Second World War. As we record this episode, the US has just slapped 25% tariffs on steel and aluminium, prompting swift retaliation from Europe and Canada.
The energy landscape is just as volatile. While the US seems set on spending the next four years as a semi-rogue petrostate—acting as if climate change were an afterthought—China is seizing the moment. It’s doubling down on EVs and electrification at home, tightening its grip on clean energy supply chains, and dominating global exports of solar panels, batteries, EVs, wind turbines, and even cables. In doing so, Beijing is cementing its status as the world’s premier electro-state.
This leaves Europe at a crossroads. How does the EU tackle sky-high energy prices while reducing its reliance on US LNG and Chinese clean tech? Can it craft a compelling narrative to counter the rising tide of populism that’s circling ever closer to the Berlaymont building in Brussels?
To help us unpack these critical questions, we’re joined by Nikos Tsafos, Greece’s recently promoted Deputy Energy Minister. His portfolio spans energy and emissions, and he collaborates with policymakers across transport and industry—not just in Greece, but throughout the EU.
Thank you to Nikos Tsafos for providing the graphs showing Greece’s energy transition.
Leadership Circle:
Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.
Links:
• Nikos Tsafos' Website: nikostsafos.com
• Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis’ letter to the President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen regarding the EU energy market: https://www.primeminister.gr/en/2024/09/13/34887
• Energy System of Greece: iea.org/countries/greece
• Yanis Varoufakis: Power, Markets & Power Markets - Ep104: youtube.com/watch?v=PLbm8fg08hc
• Audioblog 14: Generative AI – The Power and the Glory: youtube.com/watch?v=OwZ2iNh133A
Chapters:
00:00 - Intro
04:30 - The 30,000-foot View of Europe
09:20 - Are Renewables Making Energy More Expensive?
16:00 - Is the US Still Friendly?
20:30 - Energy & Security
24:30 - Europe’s Energy Addiction
29:30 - Are Renewables That Cheap?
35:00 - Climate Vs Competition
42:00 - Simpler Targets
46:30 - Tradeoffs
51:30 - Greece’s Transition
55:00 - The Challenges
01:00:00 - AI & Data Centres
01:04:50 - Outro
