Uploaded August 2026 | Updated September 2026, 2 weeks ago
Anne Pasternak runs the Brooklyn Museum, where more than half of all visitors pay nothing to get in. She wouldn't have it any other way. Michael Roth, president of Wesleyan University, is one of the most outspoken university leaders in the country. The two had never met before they sat down with Stephen Dubner.
Stephen wants to know what it takes to run a big institution when trust in nearly every institution is falling. Why does Roth publish his opinions without clearing them with his board? What happened when Wesleyan invited Antonin Scalia to campus? And how did Anne get back on her feet after a year that left her “Flattened”?
Anne explains why she refuses to join cultural boycotts even after decades of pressure, and explains why she became a target after the October 7 attacks. Michael recounts the Scalia visit in full: The protesters in orange jumpsuits, the student who shouted "Why don't you call on a woman," And the surprise of finding the whole day productive. They compare endowments, and they look at art together, with Anne offering the only rule she truly believes in: There is no right way to read an artwork.
#betterinperson #freakonomicsradio #annepasternak #michaelroth
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Introducing ChatGPT Work - Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new ChatGPT desktop app today at chatgpt.com
ABOUT BETTER IN PERSON:
Everyone has a public story. Stephen Dubner wants the rest.
On Better in Person, Dubner invites remarkable people into his home for a kind of conversation that’s hard to find: curious, free-wheeling, even profound. They talk, play, eat and drink, argue and laugh. The result? Less interview, more shared discovery.
This is how a conversation works.
FOLLOW BETTER IN PERSON:
Instagram: instagram.com/betterinpersontv
TikTok: tiktok.com/betterinpersontv
FOLLOW STEPHEN DUBNER:
Instagram: instagram.com/stephenjdubner
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/stephen-dubner-2a066578
Substack: stephendubner.substack.com
FOLLOW FREAKONOMICS:
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TikTok: tiktok.com/@freakonomicsradio
Twitter: twitter.com/freakonomics
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/freakonomics-media
Threads: threads.com/@freakonomics
CHAPTERS:
00:00 Meet Anne Pasternak and Michael Roth
03:04 Anne Pasternak on Running the Brooklyn Museum
06:41 Michael Roth on the Purpose of Wesleyan
08:23 The Art of Fundraising
10:10 Are Museums and Universities Losing Public Trust?
12:58 October 7 Hamas Attack and Leading Through Crisis
18:02 Why Michael Roth Invited Antonin Scalia
20:17 The Value of Hearing People You Disagree With
23:38 Misconceptions About Running a Museum
29:12 How to Look at Art
30:37 Can A.I. Improve the Museum Experience?
32:47 Teaching Students in the Age of AI
34:26 The Future of Learning
Anne Pasternak and Michael Roth on Why Institutions Still Matter | Better in Person
youtu.be/-h3lsOomXaQ
Anne Pasternak runs the Brooklyn Museum, where more than half of all visitors pay nothing to get in. She wouldn't have it any other way. Michael Roth, president of Wesleyan University, is one of the most outspoken university leaders in the country. The two had never met before they sat down with Stephen Dubner.
Stephen wants to know what it takes to run a big institution when trust in nearly every institution is falling. Why does Roth publish his opinions without clearing them with his board? What happened when Wesleyan invited Antonin Scalia to campus? And how did Anne get back on her feet after a year that left her “Flattened”?
Anne explains why she refuses to join cultural boycotts even after decades of pressure, and explains why she became a target after the October 7 attacks. Michael recounts the Scalia visit in full: The protesters in orange jumpsuits, the student who shouted "Why don't you call on a woman," And the surprise of finding the whole day productive. They compare endowments, and they look at art together, with Anne offering the only rule she truly believes in: There is no right way to read an artwork.
#betterinperson #freakonomicsradio #annepasternak #michaelroth
Airs weekly on Tuesdays. Don't miss an episode! Subscribe NOW: youtube.com/channel/UCXjf7anLJA4NqUv8kPFIJWA?sub_confirmation=1
Introducing ChatGPT Work - Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new ChatGPT desktop app today at chatgpt.com
ABOUT BETTER IN PERSON:
Everyone has a public story. Stephen Dubner wants the rest.
On Better in Person, Dubner invites remarkable people into his home for a kind of conversation that’s hard to find: curious, free-wheeling, even profound. They talk, play, eat and drink, argue and laugh. The result? Less interview, more shared discovery.
This is how a conversation works.
FOLLOW BETTER IN PERSON:
Instagram: instagram.com/betterinpersontv
TikTok: tiktok.com/betterinpersontv
FOLLOW STEPHEN DUBNER:
Instagram: instagram.com/stephenjdubner
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/stephen-dubner-2a066578
Substack: stephendubner.substack.com
FOLLOW FREAKONOMICS:
Instagram: instagram.com/freakonomics
Facebook: facebook.com/freakonomics
TikTok: tiktok.com/@freakonomicsradio
Twitter: twitter.com/freakonomics
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/freakonomics-media
Threads: threads.com/@freakonomics
CHAPTERS:
00:00 Meet Anne Pasternak and Michael Roth
03:04 Anne Pasternak on Running the Brooklyn Museum
06:41 Michael Roth on the Purpose of Wesleyan
08:23 The Art of Fundraising
10:10 Are Museums and Universities Losing Public Trust?
12:58 October 7 Hamas Attack and Leading Through Crisis
18:02 Why Michael Roth Invited Antonin Scalia
20:17 The Value of Hearing People You Disagree With
23:38 Misconceptions About Running a Museum
29:12 How to Look at Art
30:37 Can A.I. Improve the Museum Experience?
32:47 Teaching Students in the Age of AI
34:26 The Future of Learning
Anne Pasternak and Michael Roth on Why Institutions Still Matter | Better in Person
youtu.be/-h3lsOomXaQ
