Uploaded June 2023 | Updated September 2026, 3 hours ago
A #podcast about how the Supreme Court got so supreme.
On June 15, 2023, the Supreme Court upheld the Indian Child Welfare Act in a case called Haaland v. Brackeen — a surprise decision that comes 10 years after the law was first questioned in Adoptive Couple v. Baby Girl.
To mark the new landmark decision, we're sharing the @Radiolabpod episode that tells the story of two families, a painful history, and a young girl caught in the middle. Listen to the end to hear an update from KSOU Indigenous affairs reporter Allison Herrera on the new decision and its impact on the communities she covers.
Voices in the episode include:
• Allison Herrera — KOSU Indigenous Affairs reporter
• Matt and Melanie Capobianco — Veronica's adoptive parents
• Dusten Brown — Veronica's biological father
• Mark Fiddler — attorney for the Capobiancos
• Marcia Zug — University of South Carolina School of Law professor
• Bert Hirsch — attorney formerly of the Association on American Indian Affairs
• Chrissi Nimmo — Deputy Attorney General for Cherokee Nation
• Terry Cross — founding executive director of the National Indian Child Welfare Association (now serving as senior advisor)
• Lori Alvino McGill — attorney for Christy Maldonado, Veronica’s biological mother
Learn more:
• 2013: Adoptive Couple v. Baby Girl — oyez.org/cases/2012/12-399
• 2023: Haaland v. Brackeen — oyez.org/cases/2022/21-376
• "Baby Veronica belongs with her adoptive parents" by Christy Maldonado — washingtonpost.com/opinions/baby-veronicas-birth-mother-girl-belongs-with-adoptive-parents/2013/07/12/40d38a12-e995-11e2-a301-ea5a8116d211_story.html
• "Doing What’s Best for the Tribe" by Marcia Zug — slate.com/human-interest/2012/08/baby-veronica-returns-to-her-biological-father-affirming-icwa-south-carolinas-supreme-court-made-the-right-decision.html
• "The Court Got Baby Veronica Wrong" by Marcia Zug — slate.com/human-interest/2013/06/baby-veronica-indian-adoption-case-the-supreme-court-got-it-wrong.html
• "A Wrenching Adoption Case" by The New York Times Editorial Board — nytimes.com/2013/04/16/opinion/a-wrenching-adoption-under-the-indian-child-welfare-act.html
• National Indian Child Welfare Association — nicwa.org/about-icwa
• In Trust podcast, reported by Allison Herrera — bloomberg.com/features/2022-in-trust-podcast
Subscribe & Listen:
• Subscribe to WNYC Studios on YouTube so you never miss an episode: bit.ly/3VovhOq
• Or subscribe to More Perfect wherever you listen to podcasts: bit.ly/3Ns9BPz
• Check out The Most Perfect Album (cools songs about the 27 amendments to the Constitution): bit.ly/3p5aWl2
• Like this video and leave us a comment!
Follow More Perfect:
Instagram — instagram.com/moreperfectpodcast
Facebook — facebook.com/moreperfectpodcast
Twitter — twitter.com/moreperfect
More Perfect is listener-supported. YOU make the podcast possible, and that gives us editorial independence and reporting resources. Donate today and we'll send you your very own, very cool Pocket Constitution! Text "perfect" to 70101, or donate here: moreperfectpodcast.org/donate
About More Perfect:
The Supreme Court was designed to be above the fray of politics. But at a time when politics seems to seep into every pore of American life, are the nine justices living up to that promise? More Perfect is a guide to the current moment on the Court. We bring the highest court of the land down to earth, telling the human dramas at the Court that shape so many aspects of American life — from our religious freedom to our artistic expression, from our reproductive choices to our voice in democracy.
The fourth season, hosted by Julia Longoria (a former More Perfect producer) will revisit the human dramas at the Court that are driving change around core aspects of American life today — from our religious freedom to our artistic expression; from our reproductive choices to our voice in democracy.
Supreme Court archival audio comes from Oyez®, a free law project by Justia and the Legal Information Institute of Cornell Law School.
Support for More Perfect is provided in part by The Smart Family Fund.
Episode illustration by Candice Evers candiceevers.com
Video by Kim Nowacki
A #podcast about how the Supreme Court got so supreme.
On June 15, 2023, the Supreme Court upheld the Indian Child Welfare Act in a case called Haaland v. Brackeen — a surprise decision that comes 10 years after the law was first questioned in Adoptive Couple v. Baby Girl.
To mark the new landmark decision, we're sharing the @Radiolabpod episode that tells the story of two families, a painful history, and a young girl caught in the middle. Listen to the end to hear an update from KSOU Indigenous affairs reporter Allison Herrera on the new decision and its impact on the communities she covers.
Voices in the episode include:
• Allison Herrera — KOSU Indigenous Affairs reporter
• Matt and Melanie Capobianco — Veronica's adoptive parents
• Dusten Brown — Veronica's biological father
• Mark Fiddler — attorney for the Capobiancos
• Marcia Zug — University of South Carolina School of Law professor
• Bert Hirsch — attorney formerly of the Association on American Indian Affairs
• Chrissi Nimmo — Deputy Attorney General for Cherokee Nation
• Terry Cross — founding executive director of the National Indian Child Welfare Association (now serving as senior advisor)
• Lori Alvino McGill — attorney for Christy Maldonado, Veronica’s biological mother
Learn more:
• 2013: Adoptive Couple v. Baby Girl — oyez.org/cases/2012/12-399
• 2023: Haaland v. Brackeen — oyez.org/cases/2022/21-376
• "Baby Veronica belongs with her adoptive parents" by Christy Maldonado — washingtonpost.com/opinions/baby-veronicas-birth-mother-girl-belongs-with-adoptive-parents/2013/07/12/40d38a12-e995-11e2-a301-ea5a8116d211_story.html
• "Doing What’s Best for the Tribe" by Marcia Zug — slate.com/human-interest/2012/08/baby-veronica-returns-to-her-biological-father-affirming-icwa-south-carolinas-supreme-court-made-the-right-decision.html
• "The Court Got Baby Veronica Wrong" by Marcia Zug — slate.com/human-interest/2013/06/baby-veronica-indian-adoption-case-the-supreme-court-got-it-wrong.html
• "A Wrenching Adoption Case" by The New York Times Editorial Board — nytimes.com/2013/04/16/opinion/a-wrenching-adoption-under-the-indian-child-welfare-act.html
• National Indian Child Welfare Association — nicwa.org/about-icwa
• In Trust podcast, reported by Allison Herrera — bloomberg.com/features/2022-in-trust-podcast
Subscribe & Listen:
• Subscribe to WNYC Studios on YouTube so you never miss an episode: bit.ly/3VovhOq
• Or subscribe to More Perfect wherever you listen to podcasts: bit.ly/3Ns9BPz
• Check out The Most Perfect Album (cools songs about the 27 amendments to the Constitution): bit.ly/3p5aWl2
• Like this video and leave us a comment!
Follow More Perfect:
Instagram — instagram.com/moreperfectpodcast
Facebook — facebook.com/moreperfectpodcast
Twitter — twitter.com/moreperfect
More Perfect is listener-supported. YOU make the podcast possible, and that gives us editorial independence and reporting resources. Donate today and we'll send you your very own, very cool Pocket Constitution! Text "perfect" to 70101, or donate here: moreperfectpodcast.org/donate
About More Perfect:
The Supreme Court was designed to be above the fray of politics. But at a time when politics seems to seep into every pore of American life, are the nine justices living up to that promise? More Perfect is a guide to the current moment on the Court. We bring the highest court of the land down to earth, telling the human dramas at the Court that shape so many aspects of American life — from our religious freedom to our artistic expression, from our reproductive choices to our voice in democracy.
The fourth season, hosted by Julia Longoria (a former More Perfect producer) will revisit the human dramas at the Court that are driving change around core aspects of American life today — from our religious freedom to our artistic expression; from our reproductive choices to our voice in democracy.
Supreme Court archival audio comes from Oyez®, a free law project by Justia and the Legal Information Institute of Cornell Law School.
Support for More Perfect is provided in part by The Smart Family Fund.
Episode illustration by Candice Evers candiceevers.com
Video by Kim Nowacki
