Uploaded April 2026 | Updated September 2026, 2 weeks ago
While we often think of life as linear, my guest’s own life, along with a decade of research, has taught him that it’s anything but. In his latest book, What to Make of a Life (amzn.to/41QwDFT) , Jim Collins unpacks the cyclical pattern life actually unfolds in, and how to navigate it. He explains how we all go through periods of “fog” — times of disorientation and uncertainty — at least three times: in youth, after a life-changing “cliff” event, and as we move through midlife into older age. We find our way out of these fogs by what Jim calls coming into “frame” — aligning what you're built to do with what you actually do in a way that feels enlivening and meaningful. And Jim unpacks the three elements that help you find, and re-find, this frame over the course of your life.
Along the way, Jim shares case studies of these principles at work, and we explore the role of luck, the inevitability of drudgery (even in work you love), and how to keep your inner fire lit over the long haul.
Resources Related to the Podcast
• Good to Great by Jim Collins (amzn.to/4u2n4iW)
• All Rise: The Remarkable Journey of Alan Page by Bill McGrane (amzn.to/3OjYLhz)
• Self-Renewal: The Individual and the Innovative Society by John W. Gardner (amzn.to/4e6SvEj)
• Sunday Firesides: You Never Know How Many Chapters Are Still to Come (dyingbreed.net/p/sunday-firesides-you-never-know-how)
• Sunday Firesides: Do the Right Thing, for Right Now (dyingbreed.net/p/sunday-firesides-do-the-right-thing)
• AoM Article: The 5 Best AoM Podcast Episodes on Finding Meaning and Purpose (artofmanliness.com/lifestyle/best-of/best-podcast-episodes-on-finding-meaning-and-purpose/)
• AoM series on finding your life's vocation (artofmanliness.com/career-wealth/career/finding-your-calling-part-i-what-is-a-vocation/)
Connect With Jim Collins
• Jim's website (jimcollins.com/)
0:00 - Introduction & Guest Overview
0:41 - What Is "What to Make of a Life"?
2:17 - The Three Seeds That Started the Research
7:26 - What Are "Encodings"? Finding What You're Built For
8:58 - John Glenn & Gordon Cooper: Encodings in Action
14:32 - It's Never Too Late to Find Your Frame (Eisenhower & Franklin)
19:34 - Multiple Frames: Alan Page's Second Life in Law
25:56 - Navigating Cliffs: Expected vs. Shocking Life Changes
31:09 - The Fog: Why Feeling Lost Is Normal
40:58 - Simplex Stepping: How to Navigate the Fog
49:32 - Flipping the Arrow of Money & Building a Flywheel
57:34 - Thriving in the Second Half of Life
While we often think of life as linear, my guest’s own life, along with a decade of research, has taught him that it’s anything but. In his latest book, What to Make of a Life (amzn.to/41QwDFT) , Jim Collins unpacks the cyclical pattern life actually unfolds in, and how to navigate it. He explains how we all go through periods of “fog” — times of disorientation and uncertainty — at least three times: in youth, after a life-changing “cliff” event, and as we move through midlife into older age. We find our way out of these fogs by what Jim calls coming into “frame” — aligning what you're built to do with what you actually do in a way that feels enlivening and meaningful. And Jim unpacks the three elements that help you find, and re-find, this frame over the course of your life.
Along the way, Jim shares case studies of these principles at work, and we explore the role of luck, the inevitability of drudgery (even in work you love), and how to keep your inner fire lit over the long haul.
Resources Related to the Podcast
• Good to Great by Jim Collins (amzn.to/4u2n4iW)
• All Rise: The Remarkable Journey of Alan Page by Bill McGrane (amzn.to/3OjYLhz)
• Self-Renewal: The Individual and the Innovative Society by John W. Gardner (amzn.to/4e6SvEj)
• Sunday Firesides: You Never Know How Many Chapters Are Still to Come (dyingbreed.net/p/sunday-firesides-you-never-know-how)
• Sunday Firesides: Do the Right Thing, for Right Now (dyingbreed.net/p/sunday-firesides-do-the-right-thing)
• AoM Article: The 5 Best AoM Podcast Episodes on Finding Meaning and Purpose (artofmanliness.com/lifestyle/best-of/best-podcast-episodes-on-finding-meaning-and-purpose/)
• AoM series on finding your life's vocation (artofmanliness.com/career-wealth/career/finding-your-calling-part-i-what-is-a-vocation/)
Connect With Jim Collins
• Jim's website (jimcollins.com/)
0:00 - Introduction & Guest Overview
0:41 - What Is "What to Make of a Life"?
2:17 - The Three Seeds That Started the Research
7:26 - What Are "Encodings"? Finding What You're Built For
8:58 - John Glenn & Gordon Cooper: Encodings in Action
14:32 - It's Never Too Late to Find Your Frame (Eisenhower & Franklin)
19:34 - Multiple Frames: Alan Page's Second Life in Law
25:56 - Navigating Cliffs: Expected vs. Shocking Life Changes
31:09 - The Fog: Why Feeling Lost Is Normal
40:58 - Simplex Stepping: How to Navigate the Fog
49:32 - Flipping the Arrow of Money & Building a Flywheel
57:34 - Thriving in the Second Half of Life
