Uploaded March 2025 | Updated September 2026, 2 weeks ago
Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with John Vervaeke and Jordan Hall. They discuss the vertical dimension, proper orientation within the hierarchy of values, the normative versus the ethical, and what makes something more “real” in a pragmatic and philosophical sense.
Dr. John Vervaeke is an associate professor of psychology and cognitive science at the University of Toronto. Vervaeke publishes and conducts research on the nature of intelligence, rationality, wisdom, and meaning in life, emphasizing relevance realization, non-propositional kinds of knowing, and 4E cognitive science.
Jordan Hall, previously known as Jordan Greenhall, is an entrepreneur and systems thinker with a focus on the intersection of technology, culture, and governance. Hall co-founded DivX, Inc., a pioneer in digital video technology, where he served as CEO and executive chairman through its early growth and IPO. Prior to that, he was a key figure at MP3.com, helping to revolutionize the digital music space. His early career also includes a brief stint as a lawyer, having earned his law degree from Harvard before transitioning into technology leadership and investment.
This episode was filmed on December 27th, 2024.
Unlock the ad-free experience of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast and dive into exclusive bonus content on DailyWire+. Start watching now: dwpluspeterson.com/yt
ALL LINKS: feedlink.io/jordanbpeterson
| Today’s Sponsors |
Shopify: Sign up for your one-dollar-per month trial period at shopify.com/jbp
Balance of Nature: Get 35% off Your Order of Fruits & Veggies + FREE Fiber & Spice Supplements. Use promo code Jordan at checkout: balanceofnature.com
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| Links |
For Jordan Hall:
On X https://x.com/jgreenhall?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
On YouTube youtube.com/channel/UCMzT-mdCqoyEv_-YZVtE7MQ
For John Vervaeke:
On X https://x.com/drjohnvervaeke?lang=en
On Youtube youtube.com/user/johnvervaeke
Website johnvervaeke.com
Find John Vervaeke on Lectern lectern.teachable.com
Dr. John Vervaeke’s courses, Intelligence Rationality Wisdom and Spirituality, The Primacy of Beauty, and Introduction to Intelligence, as well as my own courses, are available at petersonacademy.com
| Chapters |
(0:00) Coming up
(0:54) Intro
(4:30) The vertical dimension
(9:35) Defining what is “worthwhile” in a hierarchy of values
(13:10) Origin, orientation, and ostension
(21:50) The superordinate figure and his antithesis
(24:58) Conscience is knowing yourself through a normative lens
(31:58) A parallel notion of Hall’s constructural framework: wolf packs
(33:02) Macro rules and micro rules: the normative versus the ethical
(35:30) How to lead an ethical but pointless life — and how to live better
(39:56) A marker for deeper “realness” is inexhaustible intelligibility
(43:36) Play as a motivational state or voluntary necessity, Tolstoy’s existential dread
(48:30) Plato’s central argument: finite transcendence
(52:20) The central evil is self-destruction
(1:00:20) Is the gap between religion and science the concept of play?
(1:03:35) The superego, Atheism, and the paradox of pointlessness
(1:09:48) The truly fundamental as immediately self-evident
(1:11:42) Do you believe your suffering is wrong?
(1:12:55) Self deception leads to self destruction
(1:15:16) Vervaeke’s theory of omission
(1:19:26) The sin that cannot be forgiven
(1:24:39) Argument, despair, and calling to the spirits that orient you upwards
(1:28:26) When Hall realized our culture lies
(1:33:50) One of largest unsolved problems in human organization
(1:39:33) Is there a uniting ethos that can bring permanent stability?
// LINKS //
Peterson Academy petersonacademy.com
ARC arcforum.com
Books - jordanbpeterson.com/books
#JordanPeterson #JordanBPeterson #DrJordanPeterson #DrJordanBPeterson #dailywireplus
Ep. 0532
Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with John Vervaeke and Jordan Hall. They discuss the vertical dimension, proper orientation within the hierarchy of values, the normative versus the ethical, and what makes something more “real” in a pragmatic and philosophical sense.
Dr. John Vervaeke is an associate professor of psychology and cognitive science at the University of Toronto. Vervaeke publishes and conducts research on the nature of intelligence, rationality, wisdom, and meaning in life, emphasizing relevance realization, non-propositional kinds of knowing, and 4E cognitive science.
Jordan Hall, previously known as Jordan Greenhall, is an entrepreneur and systems thinker with a focus on the intersection of technology, culture, and governance. Hall co-founded DivX, Inc., a pioneer in digital video technology, where he served as CEO and executive chairman through its early growth and IPO. Prior to that, he was a key figure at MP3.com, helping to revolutionize the digital music space. His early career also includes a brief stint as a lawyer, having earned his law degree from Harvard before transitioning into technology leadership and investment.
This episode was filmed on December 27th, 2024.
Unlock the ad-free experience of The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast and dive into exclusive bonus content on DailyWire+. Start watching now: dwpluspeterson.com/yt
ALL LINKS: feedlink.io/jordanbpeterson
| Today’s Sponsors |
Shopify: Sign up for your one-dollar-per month trial period at shopify.com/jbp
Balance of Nature: Get 35% off Your Order of Fruits & Veggies + FREE Fiber & Spice Supplements. Use promo code Jordan at checkout: balanceofnature.com
Hallow: Get 3 months free at hallow.com/Jordan
Oracle Netsuite: Make better business decisions with NetSuite NetSuite.com/JBP
| Links |
For Jordan Hall:
On X https://x.com/jgreenhall?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
On YouTube youtube.com/channel/UCMzT-mdCqoyEv_-YZVtE7MQ
For John Vervaeke:
On X https://x.com/drjohnvervaeke?lang=en
On Youtube youtube.com/user/johnvervaeke
Website johnvervaeke.com
Find John Vervaeke on Lectern lectern.teachable.com
Dr. John Vervaeke’s courses, Intelligence Rationality Wisdom and Spirituality, The Primacy of Beauty, and Introduction to Intelligence, as well as my own courses, are available at petersonacademy.com
| Chapters |
(0:00) Coming up
(0:54) Intro
(4:30) The vertical dimension
(9:35) Defining what is “worthwhile” in a hierarchy of values
(13:10) Origin, orientation, and ostension
(21:50) The superordinate figure and his antithesis
(24:58) Conscience is knowing yourself through a normative lens
(31:58) A parallel notion of Hall’s constructural framework: wolf packs
(33:02) Macro rules and micro rules: the normative versus the ethical
(35:30) How to lead an ethical but pointless life — and how to live better
(39:56) A marker for deeper “realness” is inexhaustible intelligibility
(43:36) Play as a motivational state or voluntary necessity, Tolstoy’s existential dread
(48:30) Plato’s central argument: finite transcendence
(52:20) The central evil is self-destruction
(1:00:20) Is the gap between religion and science the concept of play?
(1:03:35) The superego, Atheism, and the paradox of pointlessness
(1:09:48) The truly fundamental as immediately self-evident
(1:11:42) Do you believe your suffering is wrong?
(1:12:55) Self deception leads to self destruction
(1:15:16) Vervaeke’s theory of omission
(1:19:26) The sin that cannot be forgiven
(1:24:39) Argument, despair, and calling to the spirits that orient you upwards
(1:28:26) When Hall realized our culture lies
(1:33:50) One of largest unsolved problems in human organization
(1:39:33) Is there a uniting ethos that can bring permanent stability?
// LINKS //
Peterson Academy petersonacademy.com
ARC arcforum.com
Books - jordanbpeterson.com/books
#JordanPeterson #JordanBPeterson #DrJordanPeterson #DrJordanBPeterson #dailywireplus
Ep. 0532
