Uploaded August 2025 | Updated September 2026, 2 weeks ago
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4e philosopher of cognitive science Hanne De Jaegher discusses the profound relationship between loving and knowing as intertwined processes. The first in what we hope to be many conversations about this inspirational work. With Andrea, Hanne explores the idea that thinking and feeling emerge from the same fundamental act of sense-making, which is rooted in our basic, biological existence. De Jaegher shares her personal experiences and how they led to her academic journey studying cognitive science, and then to her work on participatory sense-making. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing both oneness and difference in relationships and the conversation discusses the critical role of noticing and relational awareness. Through various explorations, De Jaegher illustrates how love is an ongoing relational activity that ‘shares a core with knowing’ and that can foster a deeper understanding of ourselves and others.
00:00 The Nature of Love and Sense Making
01:18 Exploring Cognitive Science and Social Cognition
02:58 Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
03:52 Hanne’s Academic Journey and Dissertation
05:37 The Philosophy of Love and Knowing
09:38 Personal Reflections on Love and Language
11:48 The Interconnection of Loving, Knowing, and Being
22:26 The Role of Noticing in Relationships
25:36 Philosophical Insights on Ontology and Epistemology
30:03 The Dynamics of Relationships and Sense Making
34:42 The Importance of Holding Tension in Understanding
40:53 The Impact of Loving and Knowing on Personal Growth
47:17 Exploring Abstract Patterns and Sensory Experiences
48:25 Understanding Social Cognition and Autism
56:10 Bridging Cognitive Science and Sociology
58:14 Motivations and Challenges in Academic Life
01:01:15 The Role of Love in Research and Life
01:06:27 Navigating Academic and Personal Challenges
01:18:27 Holding Space and Embracing Multiplicity
01:24:47 Concluding Thoughts on Love and Understanding
Francisco Varela (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Varela)
Loving and Knowing (link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11097-019-09634-5) : reflections for an engaged epistemology
Paradoxical Practices (sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0388000125000269) (2025) with Elena Cuffari and Rika Preiser
Participatory Sense-Making (http://Ezequiel Di Paolo) with Ezequiel Di Paolo
Sense Making (Maturana & Varela (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopoiesis_and_Cognition:_The_Realization_of_the_Living) )
Living Ways of Sense Making (achrafkassioui.com/library/Evan%20Thompson%20-%20Living%20Ways%20of%20Sense%20Making.pdf) by Evan Thompson
Andy Clark (profiles.sussex.ac.uk/p493-andy-clark)
Hanne’s website and publication list (hannedejaegher.net/publications/)
Support the show (loveandphilosophy.com/giving-page)
Andrea Hiott is a philosopher and cognitive scientist developing the navigational approach to mind — the view that mind is “the body’s navigational action in all spaces of life, from the geographical to the emotional to the social to the virtual.” She hosts the Love & Philosophy (Beyond Dichotomy) podcast and Substack, and her work draws on hippocampal research, 4E cognition (embodied, embedded, extended, enactive), and the ecological tradition. Her book Holding Paradox: A Navigational Approach to Mind and Consciousness is forthcoming. Her recurring interests — holding apparent contradictions open, “way-making,” the importance of care and 'mattering', constellation/kaleidoscopic thinking, and moving beyond either/or — frame her questions throughout.
Support the show (loveandphilosophy.com/giving-page)
Buy Holding Paradox: The Navigational Approach to Mind and Consciousness (simonandschuster.net/books/Holding-Paradox/Andrea-Hiott/9781917991636) by Andrea Hiott
Sign up for Making Ways newsletter and projects. (making-ways.com/)
Please rate and review with love.
YouTube (youtube.com/@waymaking23) , Facebook (facebook.com/waymaking/) , Instagram (instagram.com/waymaking23/) , Substack (lovephilosophy.substack.com/) .
Send a love message (buzzsprout.com/2229994/fan_mail/new)
Give (loveandphilosophy.com/giving-page)
Support with a Subscription (lovephilosophy.substack.com/)
4e philosopher of cognitive science Hanne De Jaegher discusses the profound relationship between loving and knowing as intertwined processes. The first in what we hope to be many conversations about this inspirational work. With Andrea, Hanne explores the idea that thinking and feeling emerge from the same fundamental act of sense-making, which is rooted in our basic, biological existence. De Jaegher shares her personal experiences and how they led to her academic journey studying cognitive science, and then to her work on participatory sense-making. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing both oneness and difference in relationships and the conversation discusses the critical role of noticing and relational awareness. Through various explorations, De Jaegher illustrates how love is an ongoing relational activity that ‘shares a core with knowing’ and that can foster a deeper understanding of ourselves and others.
00:00 The Nature of Love and Sense Making
01:18 Exploring Cognitive Science and Social Cognition
02:58 Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
03:52 Hanne’s Academic Journey and Dissertation
05:37 The Philosophy of Love and Knowing
09:38 Personal Reflections on Love and Language
11:48 The Interconnection of Loving, Knowing, and Being
22:26 The Role of Noticing in Relationships
25:36 Philosophical Insights on Ontology and Epistemology
30:03 The Dynamics of Relationships and Sense Making
34:42 The Importance of Holding Tension in Understanding
40:53 The Impact of Loving and Knowing on Personal Growth
47:17 Exploring Abstract Patterns and Sensory Experiences
48:25 Understanding Social Cognition and Autism
56:10 Bridging Cognitive Science and Sociology
58:14 Motivations and Challenges in Academic Life
01:01:15 The Role of Love in Research and Life
01:06:27 Navigating Academic and Personal Challenges
01:18:27 Holding Space and Embracing Multiplicity
01:24:47 Concluding Thoughts on Love and Understanding
Francisco Varela (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Varela)
Loving and Knowing (link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11097-019-09634-5) : reflections for an engaged epistemology
Paradoxical Practices (sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0388000125000269) (2025) with Elena Cuffari and Rika Preiser
Participatory Sense-Making (http://Ezequiel Di Paolo) with Ezequiel Di Paolo
Sense Making (Maturana & Varela (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopoiesis_and_Cognition:_The_Realization_of_the_Living) )
Living Ways of Sense Making (achrafkassioui.com/library/Evan%20Thompson%20-%20Living%20Ways%20of%20Sense%20Making.pdf) by Evan Thompson
Andy Clark (profiles.sussex.ac.uk/p493-andy-clark)
Hanne’s website and publication list (hannedejaegher.net/publications/)
Support the show (loveandphilosophy.com/giving-page)
Andrea Hiott is a philosopher and cognitive scientist developing the navigational approach to mind — the view that mind is “the body’s navigational action in all spaces of life, from the geographical to the emotional to the social to the virtual.” She hosts the Love & Philosophy (Beyond Dichotomy) podcast and Substack, and her work draws on hippocampal research, 4E cognition (embodied, embedded, extended, enactive), and the ecological tradition. Her book Holding Paradox: A Navigational Approach to Mind and Consciousness is forthcoming. Her recurring interests — holding apparent contradictions open, “way-making,” the importance of care and 'mattering', constellation/kaleidoscopic thinking, and moving beyond either/or — frame her questions throughout.
Support the show (loveandphilosophy.com/giving-page)
Buy Holding Paradox: The Navigational Approach to Mind and Consciousness (simonandschuster.net/books/Holding-Paradox/Andrea-Hiott/9781917991636) by Andrea Hiott
Sign up for Making Ways newsletter and projects. (making-ways.com/)
Please rate and review with love.
YouTube (youtube.com/@waymaking23) , Facebook (facebook.com/waymaking/) , Instagram (instagram.com/waymaking23/) , Substack (lovephilosophy.substack.com/) .
