Uploaded April 2026 | Updated September 2026, 19 minutes ago
Something has shifted dramatically in the last few years. The institutions and information structures we were trained to trust have failed in ways that are now difficult to ignore, producing a kind of generalized mistrust that makes it hard to think, hard to act, and hard to know what a good life even looks like anymore.
In this episode, Kelly sits down with philosopher and author James Madden to examine what it means to navigate belief and meaning when the ground beneath shared reality has already given way. Jim is the author of Unidentified Flying Hyper-Object: UFOs, Philosophy, and the End of the World and Thinking About Thinking: Mind and Meaning in the Era of Techno-Nihilism, and a longtime thinking partner whose refusal to offer easy answers has made him a favorite among listeners of Kelly's previous work.
They talk about the complacent indifference that has settled over people in the wake of seemingly endless waves of institutional scandal and revelation. They talk about conspiracy thinking as a cognitive response to the collapse of trusted authority—and why the fact that some conspiracies turn out to be real makes the situation harder to navigate, not easier. They talk about why generalized epistemic mistrust is such an effective mechanism for preventing meaningful action. And they talk about what it means to keep trying to live well when you can no longer trust the information you would need to do it.
Topics explored: epistemological collapse | conspiracy thinking as cognitive response | institutional trust failure | the "big other" | generalized skepticism as paralysis | information warfare | the psychology of indifference | epistemic mistrust and political action | radical self-reliance | faith and probability | living well under uncertainty | Žižek | Lacan | Plato's Republic
Inquiry with Kelly Chase is brought to you by SpectreVision Radio.
Produced in partnership with Voltage.fm.
Referenced In This Episode
Unidentified Flying Hyperobject: UFOs, Philosophy, and the End of the World, James Madden: amzn.to/4t3pkq0
Thinking about Thinking: Mind and Meaning in the Era of Techno-Nihilism, James Madden: amzn.to/4cr9foc
Republic, Plato: amzn.to/4m8UAl7
The Agnostic Inquirer: Revelation from a Philosophical Standpoint, Sandra Menssen & Thomas D. Sullivan: amzn.to/4tpYU1z
Check Out James Madden's Podcast:
The Great Dangerous Books Podcast
—YouTube: youtube.com/@GDBPodcast
—Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/5TDFBlrSbgl47PfJEDWIMI?si=83bfe3b515c8413d
—Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-great-dangerous-books-podcast/id1816055942
Support The Show
Patreon: inquirywithkellychase.com
Substack: inquirywithkellychase.substack.com
Connect with Kelly
Website: kellychase.media
X: x.com/kellychasemedia
Instagram: instagram.com/kellychasemedia
Watch Season 1 of Comosis: UFOs & A New Reality
Prime Video: primevideo.com/detail/0GR10KHFPAGTE1FK7173P5I2N1/ref=atv_dp_share_cu_r
Tubi: tubitv.com/series/300019017/cosmosis-ufo-a-new-reality
TIMESTAMPS
04:50 Indifference and Partisan Filters
06:03 Frozen by Mistrust
07:41 Ontological vs Epistemic
09:33 Medical Trust Breakdown
13:13 Sheep Bandits Skepticism
18:23 Conspiracy Comfort Trap
22:07 Secrecy and Leaks
26:00 How Conspiracies Operate
28:32 Black Budgets Disinfo
30:57 UFO Skepticism In Principle
34:34 Portal Claims and Psyops
35:56 Trading Obscurity for Obscurity
38:43 Counting Humans Knowledge Limits
41:32 Good Life in Uncertainty
44:09 Moron Idiot Imbecile Framework
46:14 Radical Self Reliance and Trust
50:16 Skepticism Without Denial
55:29 Faith, Doubt, and Jesus
01:01:09 Keep Seeking Do Good
01:02:17 Credits and Where to Listen
MUSIC
The Uh Experiment by RimskyMusic
License Purchased via PremiumBeat
MONETIZATION ID: Z0GIJ3LKTGDGRDBE
Something has shifted dramatically in the last few years. The institutions and information structures we were trained to trust have failed in ways that are now difficult to ignore, producing a kind of generalized mistrust that makes it hard to think, hard to act, and hard to know what a good life even looks like anymore.
In this episode, Kelly sits down with philosopher and author James Madden to examine what it means to navigate belief and meaning when the ground beneath shared reality has already given way. Jim is the author of Unidentified Flying Hyper-Object: UFOs, Philosophy, and the End of the World and Thinking About Thinking: Mind and Meaning in the Era of Techno-Nihilism, and a longtime thinking partner whose refusal to offer easy answers has made him a favorite among listeners of Kelly's previous work.
They talk about the complacent indifference that has settled over people in the wake of seemingly endless waves of institutional scandal and revelation. They talk about conspiracy thinking as a cognitive response to the collapse of trusted authority—and why the fact that some conspiracies turn out to be real makes the situation harder to navigate, not easier. They talk about why generalized epistemic mistrust is such an effective mechanism for preventing meaningful action. And they talk about what it means to keep trying to live well when you can no longer trust the information you would need to do it.
Topics explored: epistemological collapse | conspiracy thinking as cognitive response | institutional trust failure | the "big other" | generalized skepticism as paralysis | information warfare | the psychology of indifference | epistemic mistrust and political action | radical self-reliance | faith and probability | living well under uncertainty | Žižek | Lacan | Plato's Republic
Inquiry with Kelly Chase is brought to you by SpectreVision Radio.
Produced in partnership with Voltage.fm.
Referenced In This Episode
Unidentified Flying Hyperobject: UFOs, Philosophy, and the End of the World, James Madden: amzn.to/4t3pkq0
Thinking about Thinking: Mind and Meaning in the Era of Techno-Nihilism, James Madden: amzn.to/4cr9foc
Republic, Plato: amzn.to/4m8UAl7
The Agnostic Inquirer: Revelation from a Philosophical Standpoint, Sandra Menssen & Thomas D. Sullivan: amzn.to/4tpYU1z
Check Out James Madden's Podcast:
The Great Dangerous Books Podcast
—YouTube: youtube.com/@GDBPodcast
—Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/5TDFBlrSbgl47PfJEDWIMI?si=83bfe3b515c8413d
—Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-great-dangerous-books-podcast/id1816055942
Support The Show
Patreon: inquirywithkellychase.com
Substack: inquirywithkellychase.substack.com
Connect with Kelly
Website: kellychase.media
X: x.com/kellychasemedia
Instagram: instagram.com/kellychasemedia
Watch Season 1 of Comosis: UFOs & A New Reality
Prime Video: primevideo.com/detail/0GR10KHFPAGTE1FK7173P5I2N1/ref=atv_dp_share_cu_r
Tubi: tubitv.com/series/300019017/cosmosis-ufo-a-new-reality
TIMESTAMPS
04:50 Indifference and Partisan Filters
06:03 Frozen by Mistrust
07:41 Ontological vs Epistemic
09:33 Medical Trust Breakdown
13:13 Sheep Bandits Skepticism
18:23 Conspiracy Comfort Trap
22:07 Secrecy and Leaks
26:00 How Conspiracies Operate
28:32 Black Budgets Disinfo
30:57 UFO Skepticism In Principle
34:34 Portal Claims and Psyops
35:56 Trading Obscurity for Obscurity
38:43 Counting Humans Knowledge Limits
41:32 Good Life in Uncertainty
44:09 Moron Idiot Imbecile Framework
46:14 Radical Self Reliance and Trust
50:16 Skepticism Without Denial
55:29 Faith, Doubt, and Jesus
01:01:09 Keep Seeking Do Good
01:02:17 Credits and Where to Listen
MUSIC
The Uh Experiment by RimskyMusic
License Purchased via PremiumBeat
MONETIZATION ID: Z0GIJ3LKTGDGRDBE
![[The UFO Rabbit Hole] An Interview with Mike Clelland: Owls, UFOs, and the Unfathomable Unseen](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/y-98uGc76Gk/mqdefault.jpg "[The UFO Rabbit Hole] An Interview with Mike Clelland: Owls, UFOs, and the Unfathomable Unseen
In this episode, I spoke with author, illustrator, and researcher, Mike Clelland. Mike is the author of several books, two of which we’ll be discussing directly in this episode. The first is The Messengers: Owls, Synchronicity, and the UFO Abductee. The second is his latest release, The Unseen, which is a fiction book that deals with many of the themes of his other work. He also provided the illustrations for the book The Cryptoterrestrials: A Meditation on Indigenous Humanoids and the Aliens Among Us by Mac Tonnies, that we’ll also be discussing in this episode. You can find links to all of his work below.
BOOKS BY MIKE CLELLAND
The Messengers: Owls, Synchronicity and the UFO Abductee: https://a.co/d/ionYzML
The Unseen: https://a.co/d/8fI31Ly
FOLLOW MIKE CLELLAND
Twitter: https://twitter.com/ClellandMike
Website: https://mikeclelland.com/
GET THE EPISODE BRIEF
https://uforabbithole.com/podcast/an-interview-with-mike-clelland-owls-ufos-and-the-unfathomable-unseen
GET THE BOOK
Get a SIGNED COPY: uforabbithole.store
Get it on Amazon: a.co/d/64OSUTa
FOLLOW
Website: uforabbithole.com
Twitter: twitter.com/ufo_rabbit_hole
Facebook: facebook.com/uforabbithole
MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson")
![[UFO Rabbit Hole] Ep 34: The Disclosure Field Guide [Pt 2]: Black Budgets & The Secret Space Program](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/yFdPX02QvFg/mqdefault.jpg "[UFO Rabbit Hole] Ep 34: The Disclosure Field Guide [Pt 2]: Black Budgets & The Secret Space Program
This episode was guest written by Mark Burchick. To find out more about Mark, click on the episode brief below.
Follow Mark on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MJBurchick
Today we are going to be continuing our Disclosure Field Guide series. As the disclosure narrative continues to unfold, this series seeks to offer a roadmap for those trying to make sense of just what exactly is going on in this strange and confounding moment in our human history.
In the first episode, we talked about how to deal with the ontological shock of recognizing that the world that we live in is not what we were told, and how to get reoriented within that new paradigm. In part two, we’re going to go a step further by diving into the history and structure of the institutionalized secrecy that has kept the reality of the UFO phenomenon hidden in plain sight for decades.
EPISODE BRIEF
https://uforabbithole.com/podcast/ep-34-the-disclosure-field-guide-pt-2-black-budgets-the-secret-space-program/
BECOME A PATRON
https//patreon.com/uforabbithole
Patrons get lots of great perks like early and ad-free episodes, access to the private The UFO Rabbit Hole Discord server, and twice-monthly Patron Zoom calls with Kelly Chase.
Memberships start at just $5/month.
GET THE BOOK
Get a SIGNED COPY: https://uforabbithole.store
Get it on Amazon: https://a.co/d/64OSUTa
FOLLOW
Website: https://uforabbithole.com
Twitter: twitter.com/ufo_rabbit_hole
Facebook: facebook.com/uforabbithole")
![[UFO Rabbit Hole] Interview w/ Michael Masters: The Extratempestrial Model & The Future Human Past](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/yryV6kwo7AA/mqdefault.jpg "[UFO Rabbit Hole] Interview w/ Michael Masters: The Extratempestrial Model & The Future Human Past
Today, we’re circling back to an idea that we visited in one of the earliest episodes of the podcast—the extratempestrial model. Sometimes also referred to as the future human hypothesis, the extratempestrial model is the idea that the UFOs phenomenon might represent advanced humans and human descendents who are traveling here from another point in time.
I’ll admit to struggling with this idea at first. Time travel has always seemed a little too clunky and a little too hokey to be taken seriously. But as so often happens on this trip down the rabbit hole, the more I learned and the more my perspective began to swell and shift to accommodate the strange new realities I was exploring, the more what once seemed like a kind of crazy idea to me suddenly started to make a heck of a lot of sense. And I found that many of my objections had more to do with the limitations of my knowledge than the limitations of the extratempestrial model.
So I wanted to come back around to this idea, because there is a lot there to dig into, most of which didn’t make it into the initial episode. And there are some new and updated ideas that I think are really valuable in understanding the complexities of the phenomenon. And there’s no better way to take a deep dive into this topic than with one of the people who literally wrote the book on the extratempestrial model—Dr. Michael P. Masters.
Michael Masters is a professor of biological anthropology at Montana Technological University. He specializes in human evolution, osteology, and anatomical sciences. Dr. Master’s work related to the phenomenon explores the potential evolutionary trajectories of humankind, linking anthropological theory to hypotheses about extraterrestrial life. He is the author of several books on the topic including Identified Flying Objects: A Multidisciplinary Scientific Approach to the UFO Phenomenon, The Extratempestrial Model, and his latest, a satirical science fiction novel called, Revelation: The Future Human Past.
GET THE EPISODE BRIEF
https://uforabbithole.com/podcast/an-interview-with-michael-masters-the-extratempestrial-model-the-future-human-past/
GET THE BOOK
Get a SIGNED COPY: https://uforabbithole.store
Get it on Amazon: https://a.co/d/64OSUTa
FOLLOW
Website: https://uforabbithole.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/ufo_rabbit_hole
Facebook: https://facebook.com/uforabbithole
MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
TIMESTAMPS
00:30 - Introduction
07:20 - What Is The Extratempestrial Model?
09:50 - The Extratempestrial Model & The Interdimensional Hypothesis
11:29 - The Social & Biological Trends That Hint At The Extratempestrial Model
16:32 - Technology & The “Other”
20:48 - Technological Variability In Humans
21:02 - The Communication Problem
25:38 - How Technology Is Shaped By Biology
28:52 - Exotic Bipedal Beings
32:17 - Could Humanoid Beings Be The Result of Biomimicry?
37:08 - Are UFOs Time Machines?
43:50 - The Nimitz Incident
47:18 - Rethinking The Impossible
49:57 - The Block Universe
59:02 - Revelation: The Future Human Past")
