Uploaded June 2026 | Updated September 2026, 2 weeks ago
This interview was recorded for the GOTO Book Club. #GOTOcon #GOTObookclub
http://gotopia.tech/bookclub
Check out more here:
https://gotopia.tech/episodes/449
Simon Brown - Author & Creator of "The C4 Model" @simonbrown4821
Susanne Kaiser - Independent Tech Consultant & Author of "Architecture for Flow" @architectureforflow
RESOURCES
Simon
https://simonbrown.je
https://bsky.app/profile/simonbrown.je
twitter.com/simonbrown
linkedin.com/in/simonbrownjersey
c4model.com
Susanne
https://bsky.app/profile/suksr.bsky.social
https://mastodon.social/@suksr
linkedin.com/in/susannekaiser1
susannekaiser.net
Links
structurizr.com
youtu.be/3Gc5pN9sGzw
youtu.be/5OjqD-ow8GE
youtu.be/NwtE82Wzs_U
youtu.be/b8WI1QYP0Zk
youtu.be/Za1-v4Zkq5E
youtu.be/FqTL-_tLf6I
DESCRIPTION
Simon Brown explains that the C4 Model started not as a grand design theory, but as a practical answer to an embarrassing problem: running a workshop on architecture diagramming, he realized he couldn't understand any of the diagrams being produced. The model formalized his own consulting practice of hierarchical handover documentation — context diagram at the top, containers below, components and code at the bottom — giving it a name and making it teachable. His core advice is to start with just the top two levels: context and container diagrams. These change infrequently, are quick to draw, and deliver immediate value. Levels three and four — components and code — are included for completeness but age rapidly with every commit, and in most cases aren't worth the maintenance overhead.
Two especially practical insights emerge from the conversation. First, how to handle microservices: if your team owns all the services inside a system boundary, each service is a collection of C4 containers; if you depend on another team's service that you can't see inside, model it as an opaque software system. This maps naturally to how domain boundaries and team ownership actually work in practice. Second, the surprisingly important distinction between modeling and diagramming: C4's real value is the shared vocabulary — systems, containers, components, code — not the visual notation itself. Teams using entirely different tooling can communicate clearly because they've agreed on what the words mean. Simon is firm that there will be no C4 v2; the model is intentionally lightweight, and adding more would risk turning it into the next UML — comprehensive, heavy, and largely abandoned.
TIMECODES
00:00 Intro
00:57 What problem Does the C4 Model solve?
02:04 The origin story: From workshop chaos to C4 Model
04:34 The 4 levels — And why you probably only need 2
07:03 Containers
07:44 Should architecture diagrams show technology?
09:51 How to get started with the C4 Model
19:23 How to model microservices in C4
21:55 Where does C4 not work?
24:07 What's the 1 thing to take away from the book?
26:15 Outro
RECOMMENDED BOOKS
Simon Brown • The C4 Model • amzn.to/4xB9V33
Susanne Kaiser • Adaptive Systems With Domain-Driven Design, Wardley Mapping & Team Topologies • amzn.to/3XTmNCc
Nick Rozanski &, Eóin Woods • Software Systems Architecture • amzn.to/4cOLtTv
van Kelle, Verschatse &Baas-Schwegler • Collaborative Software Design • amzn.to/4iv0N8I
https://bsky.app/profile/gotocon.com
twitter.com/GOTOcon
linkedin.com/company/goto-
instagram.com/goto_con
facebook.com/GOTOConferences
#SoftwareArchitecture #C4Model #Sturcturizr #Monolith #ModularMonolith #Microservices #UML #DDD #MessageDrivenArchitectures #Abstractions #Microfrontends #SimonBrown #SusanneKaiser #SoftwareEngineering #Programming #TodayInTech #BookClub
CHANNEL MEMBERSHIP BONUS
Join this channel to get early access to videos & other perks:
youtube.com/channel/UCs_tLP3AiwYKwdUHpltJPuA/join
Looking for a unique learning experience?
Attend the next GOTO conference near you! Get your ticket at https://gotopia.tech
Sign up for updates and specials at https://gotopia.tech/newsletter
SUBSCRIBE TO OUR CHANNEL - new videos posted almost daily.
youtube.com/user/GotoConferences/?sub_confirmation=1
This interview was recorded for the GOTO Book Club. #GOTOcon #GOTObookclub
http://gotopia.tech/bookclub
Check out more here:
https://gotopia.tech/episodes/449
Simon Brown - Author & Creator of "The C4 Model" @simonbrown4821
Susanne Kaiser - Independent Tech Consultant & Author of "Architecture for Flow" @architectureforflow
RESOURCES
Simon
https://simonbrown.je
https://bsky.app/profile/simonbrown.je
twitter.com/simonbrown
linkedin.com/in/simonbrownjersey
c4model.com
Susanne
https://bsky.app/profile/suksr.bsky.social
https://mastodon.social/@suksr
linkedin.com/in/susannekaiser1
susannekaiser.net
Links
structurizr.com
youtu.be/3Gc5pN9sGzw
youtu.be/5OjqD-ow8GE
youtu.be/NwtE82Wzs_U
youtu.be/b8WI1QYP0Zk
youtu.be/Za1-v4Zkq5E
youtu.be/FqTL-_tLf6I
DESCRIPTION
Simon Brown explains that the C4 Model started not as a grand design theory, but as a practical answer to an embarrassing problem: running a workshop on architecture diagramming, he realized he couldn't understand any of the diagrams being produced. The model formalized his own consulting practice of hierarchical handover documentation — context diagram at the top, containers below, components and code at the bottom — giving it a name and making it teachable. His core advice is to start with just the top two levels: context and container diagrams. These change infrequently, are quick to draw, and deliver immediate value. Levels three and four — components and code — are included for completeness but age rapidly with every commit, and in most cases aren't worth the maintenance overhead.
Two especially practical insights emerge from the conversation. First, how to handle microservices: if your team owns all the services inside a system boundary, each service is a collection of C4 containers; if you depend on another team's service that you can't see inside, model it as an opaque software system. This maps naturally to how domain boundaries and team ownership actually work in practice. Second, the surprisingly important distinction between modeling and diagramming: C4's real value is the shared vocabulary — systems, containers, components, code — not the visual notation itself. Teams using entirely different tooling can communicate clearly because they've agreed on what the words mean. Simon is firm that there will be no C4 v2; the model is intentionally lightweight, and adding more would risk turning it into the next UML — comprehensive, heavy, and largely abandoned.
TIMECODES
00:00 Intro
00:57 What problem Does the C4 Model solve?
02:04 The origin story: From workshop chaos to C4 Model
04:34 The 4 levels — And why you probably only need 2
07:03 Containers
07:44 Should architecture diagrams show technology?
09:51 How to get started with the C4 Model
19:23 How to model microservices in C4
21:55 Where does C4 not work?
24:07 What's the 1 thing to take away from the book?
26:15 Outro
RECOMMENDED BOOKS
Simon Brown • The C4 Model • amzn.to/4xB9V33
Susanne Kaiser • Adaptive Systems With Domain-Driven Design, Wardley Mapping & Team Topologies • amzn.to/3XTmNCc
Nick Rozanski &, Eóin Woods • Software Systems Architecture • amzn.to/4cOLtTv
van Kelle, Verschatse &Baas-Schwegler • Collaborative Software Design • amzn.to/4iv0N8I
https://bsky.app/profile/gotocon.com
twitter.com/GOTOcon
linkedin.com/company/goto-
instagram.com/goto_con
facebook.com/GOTOConferences
#SoftwareArchitecture #C4Model #Sturcturizr #Monolith #ModularMonolith #Microservices #UML #DDD #MessageDrivenArchitectures #Abstractions #Microfrontends #SimonBrown #SusanneKaiser #SoftwareEngineering #Programming #TodayInTech #BookClub
CHANNEL MEMBERSHIP BONUS
Join this channel to get early access to videos & other perks:
youtube.com/channel/UCs_tLP3AiwYKwdUHpltJPuA/join
Looking for a unique learning experience?
Attend the next GOTO conference near you! Get your ticket at https://gotopia.tech
Sign up for updates and specials at https://gotopia.tech/newsletter
SUBSCRIBE TO OUR CHANNEL - new videos posted almost daily.
youtube.com/user/GotoConferences/?sub_confirmation=1
