Kierio05
In this video, I show an area with boost panel collision on Aquania (v1) that allows for some exploration all the way around the building on the first turn of the raised open road. I also explain some extremely basic mechanics to do with velocity while driving on OOB seams. Nothing much more to this lol
updated 2 years ago
Made for the Multi-Game TAS Competition, and hosted in the discord: discord.gg/PbY433kFQN
I plan to make an abridged version of this with cuts and speedups, but have got many requests to upload the uncut version as soon as possible!
*Long story:*
Last night, out of nowhere, I thought "hey, the reason the ODB supergrind worked was because of the optimal counter-rotation, not the use of outside drift, so shouldn't IDB be able to get it with optimal counter-rotation too?"
When I found the time to test this today, I tried the exact same setup as the ODB supergrind (youtu.be/Xo9ejZvKXhw), but realised quickly that the stairs were not feasible to build and carry EV past the finish line.
Next, I tried a setup off the geysers (youtu.be/maxMPSGztwY), was able to get the supergrind (and carry it to the first ramp), but it was about 0.6 slower due to the fact that I didn't have enough EV to RFH the ramp (so was forced to eject early in order to hit the boost panel).
Finally, I tried a setup in the offroad (youtu.be/WFcCjWEEL-U), which let me carry much more EV onto the ramp; enough to let me RFH up it, giving me a low trick.
This saves 1 frame over the double trick entry (youtu.be/3anjf7Go2hE). However, this is just a prelim demo so could definitely save much more.
The current no ultra route takes less than a minute and 1 mushroom, whereas this takes over 11 minutes and 2 mushrooms. Why demonstrate this at all? Well, just like how ultra longcuts show the more general challenge of finding a way to complete a lap forwards without hitting all key checkpoints, this reverse ultra in particular shows the more general challenge of finding a way to complete a lap backwards without hitting all key checkpoints. So, any track which has some sort of method of performing a reverse ultra, whether that be an improvement in respawns/mushrooms/time or not, will be documented separately, as making them happen is not trivial.
What is actually done in the video? Well, I perform the first part of the regular ultra to get onto and around the wall, then cross back into lap 0, drop down to the track below, and drive forward. I then get myself on the outside of the track and start wall hugging.
I am currently locked in CP26 (the last CP), so if I were to drive into CP0 the lap would increase back to lap 1 due to the reverse last CP rule, so I need to be in CP25. CP25 ever so slightly cuts into the region I can wall hug, so slightly that I have to lean to the side to reach it (which is incredibly precise to hit, let alone avoid reentering CP26 when returning to neutral).
Once I've escaped CP26 and locked myself in CP25, I have no choice but to wall hug forwards around the entire track to get back up (continuing backwards would unavoidably make me enter CP26). This takes about 9 minutes, during which the input limit is reached, so the rest needed to be TASed by manually entering the inputs into a csv file.
Once I get far enough, I'm able to use 1 mushroom to clip back in bounds, then use the newly found way to skip the 1st block (youtu.be/NEgukdx0Qlo), which was actually found while working on this strategy on a different savestate. Getting it with Spear is ridiculously hard compared to bullet bike as the heavyweight class has much worse trick height. From there, I used the shroomless clip for the 2nd block skip and completed the reverse ultra.
This reverse ultra was achieved more than a year ago, but as stated already went well over the input limit, so couldn't record it. I was not looking forward to redo it for documentation, but once we finally reached Christmas Court in the series, I had no choice but to try. I was able to do everything up to the input limit using normal TASing techniques, but was forced to do the last couple minutes of wall hugging, the clip back in-bounds, the 1st block skip, the 2nd block skip, and all driving in-between manually in a spreadsheet.
I reached a brick wall at the 1st block. I spent several days trying to get it without success, so sent it out to Thomas to try it, as he had experience with TASing past the input limit on DS Peach Gardens. He is not a particularly big fan of this series so didn't prioritise it, and after 2 months wasn't able to get any success. Another 2 months later, I sent it to Police, who was able to get marginally closer, and later that night, I redid the skip from scratch with new motivation and got it.
All in all, the reverse ultra cannot be done with less than 2 mushrooms, and using 2 or more mushrooms gives a 0 respawn solution. These statistics are separate from the no ultra route.
Fast ghost with XZ speedometer: youtu.be/OXxBFRxwXD8
Slow ghost with XZ speedometer: youtu.be/_k8Z6ORU6nI
See, when working on making the Grumble Volcano ODB supergrind possible on the right side of the track (youtu.be/e4ikQuJnnMI), I found it was possible to maintain a supergrind while turning the opposite direction you're moving without slowing down significantly (I do it briefly to avoid offroad). This was a big development, and called for more testing.
So, I moved to the first thing I thought of - Bowser's Castle. I had poured hours of attempts into making a supergrind possible on that track, and the thing that always killed any chance was the fact that you couldn't move fast enough with a good angle. So why not just give myself a better angle by counter-rotating? That's exactly what I did (youtu.be/Xo9ejZvKXhw).
Shortly after that, Marth and Thomas found a way to get the slower IDB supergrind on DS Peach Gardens to work on ODB (Marth found the supergrind, and Thomas managed to do it facing the other way and carry it around the next turn), as well as finding a bonus supergrind and a way to make the flap-only supergrind viable in a 3lap run (streamable.com/sn1wtf, streamable.com/fmdsro, streamable.com/sxblko). The issue with the way they navigated the hedge maze was they were counter-rotating the usual way, one which gives speed loss and therefore significant time loss. So, when I made my flap LOTAD, I performed this hedge maze supergrind using my newly found optimal counter-rotation (youtu.be/JJHfzxDR0G4).
Along with the new rPG supergrinds came new rDS supergrinds. You may know I am a fan of DS Delfino Square, so my interest and motivation were piqued. I made a 3lap LOTAD which once again utilised the optimal counter-rotation throughout the TAS (youtu.be/njC_z7c4K6c), but 2 days later had the idea of doing it to the extreme, where I wouldn't just correct my angle, but actually take a turn backwards. That's exactly what I did (youtu.be/w8KG8TRRV6I). Explain the last 10 seconds of lap 3 to me from 2020 and I wouldn't believe that it was real.
Anyway, what even is optimal supergrind counter-rotation? Well, supergrinds are made up of two repeated frames, the B press and the B release. In terms of hop mechanics, the first is the angle hop frame (you can choose any direction and it won't affect the hop/drift following), and the second is the committing frame (whatever you choose on this frame is the direction you rotate). You always input a direction on the angle hop frame, and always input neutral on the committing frame.
The angle hop frame is responsible for the momentum increase during a supergrind, and the second is responsible for the lack of rotation you receive relative to simply holding a hard direction every frame. In late 2019, I found that on shallow curves or short straights, the best way to supergrind is to use the least amount of input on the angle hop frame (which is a magnitude of 2 since magnitude 1 behaves like a neutral input - this was eventually named "softgrinding").
When working on the second rMR supergrind in early 2020 (youtu.be/5ugKk-B-jW0), I realised you could also use hard inputs (magnitude 7) on the committing frame to turn yourself the opposite direction, but it slowed you down massively. It wasn't until working on the GV SG early this year when I realised the hard input was the thing slowing me down, and found the least amount of input on the committing frame (which is a magnitude of 1) would not slow you down significantly, as that magnitude behaves like a neutral input.
This tech is now central to how supergrinding is performed, and has been crucial in making some strategies even viable (it is used throughout the entirety of the new MMM ODB SG in order to maintain high speed without turning right: youtu.be/31cScT_JZls).
Note that even though a supergrind already existed on the long turn leading up to the bridge, superhops accelerate much faster and have no turning limit, so pretty much invalidate any boostless supergrind on a curve (sad).
The reason I'm using a kart is just to demonstrate the fact that the speed gained in this video has nothing to do with the traditional method of supergrinding (repeated angle hops, which karts are unable to do). All of this speed is being gained thanks to the hill I'm moving down. Why this happens, and our movement speed isn't capped at 120, we still don't know.
Special thanks go to _tZ (youtube.com/channel/UCFHoTC2NXG-i-rHEhDrS1RQ), who demonstrated this to be possible in April 2021 (cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/356185849337085953/830630105435996181/CDpOuz1vK7.mp4), and reached a peak of about 100 XYZ speed, which was ultimately my inspiration for trying this again due to all the new superhopping developments.
This also happens to be the fastest speed ever travelled during a supergrind. You will notice I peak at about 125.5 in this video. Note that I was able to reach 127.8, but doing so with this setup made me run into the wall. A history of the fastest speeds accomplished can be seen below:
120 - First supergrinds (2014-15, on Luigi Circuit)
121 - Thomas (2018, on Luigi Circuit)
122 - myself (2019, on Luigi Circuit)
123 - Jellopuff (2019, on N64 Mario Raceway)
124 - myself (2020, on N64 DK's Jungle Parkway)
125, 126, 127 - myself (2022, on GCN DK Mountain)
Lap time was 46.177 (rs's 1 shroom laps are 44.882). shroomspots are probably going to be second turn, turn before cannon, and turn after cannon, but I did this to have an idea of how much slower I still was against RS. For the record, I'm 0.6 behind by the time I get to the cannon. With the knowledge I have on the category system, this means Rainbow Road now has 3 categories - Unrestricted (ultra), No Ultra (fast wheelie glitch at turnskip), and No Glitch (no fast wheelie glitch at turnskip).
This timesave was independently discovered by _tZ (youtube.com/channel/UCYgxToY9uwv_9TtoG-c42OA) in January 2021 (cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/735589843513638940/806286290030690375/3fKwroUi3H.mp4), however it wasn't until I was uploading this video that I realised he actually used fast wheelie glitch to take the turn tighter. Note: The video linked above shows _tZ racing an earlier attempt of his timesave, rather than RS's original lap 1.
See the Zip Zip / Rapide run here: youtu.be/trmk5u-ssyY
Thanks to all the people in voice chats with me over the past few days giving me motivation to get the ultra (especially the second time). Special thanks to @justin3055 for discovering the new ODB-exclusive 3lap viable ultra strategy (youtu.be/oGn2mE27czE)!
I love that I can use the fact that this vehicle bounces too much to my advantage.
On any shroomless lap, zip zip gains a significant amount of time over shooting star because it can take the water route and shooting star has to go all the way to the ramp path. Therefore, on both 3-0-0 (2 shroom ultra lap 1) and 1-2-0 (2 shroom ultra lap 2), shooting star is slower. For TAS, shooting star is only barely faster because of its speed and drift relative to zip zip's offroad and acceleration. Yoshi is not faster than Daisy here. Shooting star would probably be slower if it were not for the OP island section strats that RTA would absolutely not be doing, meaning even for 1-1-1 (1 shroom ultra lap 3), zip zip is still likely faster for RTA. However, RTA shooting star laps seem to be faster than zip zip (which may be due to zip zip not having been pushed to its limit) so shooting star seems to be the current fastest option for 1-1-1 (1 shroom ultra lap 3).
See the Shooting Star / Twinkle Star run here: youtu.be/G_4trkj7ACo
Thanks to @EjayB and @campbellmop355 for helping me out with deciding on the best way to approach the first turn of lap 2, and for all the people in voice chats with me over the past few days giving me motivation to get the ultra lol. Special thanks to @justin3055 for discovering the new ODB-exclusive 3lap viable ultra strategy (youtu.be/oGn2mE27czE)!
Funnily enough, the ending strat saves 0.001 over a complete stick on the offroad.
On any shroomless lap, zip zip gains a significant amount of time over shooting star because it can take the water route and shooting star has to go all the way to the ramp path. Therefore, on both 3-0-0 (2 shroom ultra lap 1) and 1-2-0 (2 shroom ultra lap 2), shooting star is slower. For TAS, shooting star is only barely faster because of its speed and drift relative to zip zip's offroad and acceleration. Yoshi is not faster than Daisy here. Shooting star would probably be slower if it were not for the OP island section strats that RTA would absolutely not be doing, meaning even for 1-1-1 (1 shroom ultra lap 3), zip zip is still likely faster for RTA. However, RTA shooting star laps seem to be faster than zip zip (which may be due to zip zip not having been pushed to its limit) so shooting star seems to be the current fastest option for 1-1-1 (1 shroom ultra lap 3).
Fortunately, this should still be faster for flap. Hopefully sub 21 is possible...
As with the previous TAS from 2 days ago, special thanks to dm248 (http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSM97wYzq7HkeK0agLATZxw) for coming up with the stair supergrind, and Wade474 (youtube.com/c/Wade474) for coming up with the [lap 1/2] last turn supergrind and proving both to be possible and finding fast ways to perform them (youtu.be/t61I1UEd8qM).
However, the difference between the last run and this one is that I do a supergrind leading into the last turn on lap 3 as well, starting it from the bridge. This is, of course, much faster to do than the slope at the very end, since you spend more time above wheelie speed and enter the last turn at well over 100 instead of about 80.
The only downside to this one is you can't hold it as long (I think, I haven't done too much testing, but I always ejected early if I tried to hold it through the next uphill when I tested it on lap 2). This also is not applicable to flame runner since you can't start it with sideways momentum and are stuck at 60-70 speed for about 10 seconds before reaching the finish line.
I came up with this while I was falling asleep last night as well (same as with the LC shroomless jellogrind), so this seems to have been a very productive brainstorming period.
As this is a new BKT, previous BKT - 1:57.855 by myself: youtu.be/njC_z7c4K6c
See the video linked above for comments on where more time could be saved throughout the rest of the run.
I thought of this idea while I was falling asleep last night so wrote it down in a notebook and tested it this morning. Seems a bit slow so far (20.393 is the current fastest 1 shroom lap with a supergrind carried in, and this is 1.2 seconds slower), but I think a ton of time could be saved elsewhere (less time spent in the grass for setup, better SG movement in both SGs, better ejection in both SGs, a 120 speed trick off the ramp, a realign clip into the grass shroom) and time should be spent to see if this has potential.
As this is a new BKT, previous BKT - 36.709 by Akari, Marth, Luke, Rocky, Ejay, and myself: youtu.be/GKXXJE2b0oA
As that run is unlisted, and also not on mkwtas.com, previous BKT before that - 36.935 by Akari, Marth, Luke, Rocky, and myself: youtu.be/WUYo3Ug6qbM
NU means No Ultra / No Ultra SC / No Ultra Shortcut, which disallows skipping key checkpoints but allows everything else (in this case, supergrinds and highclips)
Some notes about the TAS:
- Probably possible to enter lap at slightly higher speed
- First turn SG could be taken tighter
- Second turn (1st shroom) is good, but exit is a bit off
- Third turn (before 2nd shroom) can maybe be taken tighter but idk if that'd actually be useful because I need to approach the next turn wide in order to be able to get momentum into the maze SG
- Maze SG is good, but uphill and approach to flowerbed is probably improvable
- Post-flowerbed ejection is good, but probably best to exit further right in order to be facing further left when starting mole area SG
- Mole area SG can probably be improved because I wasn't sure how I was gonna approach tree clip when I made this
- Tree clip setup (3rd shroom), airtime, recovery, and last turn can be improved
As this is a new BKT, previous BKT (which doesn't use any SGs, so is now the no SG BKT) - 1:58.764 by Luke: youtu.be/u_RX0ok2wXY
This TAS can probably be improved by one or two seconds, so I expect a 1:55 to be possible with better driving, better supergrinds, and proper bridge strats. Some other comments regarding the drawbridge:
- Lap 1 bridge strat was only possible with a drift into it in order to get sideways momentum. Without it, the RFH wouldn't hold up to the top and the wheelie trigger wouldn't happen
- Lap 2 bridge strat would be improved with a double trick, like in Luke's flame runner no SG TAS
- Lap 3 bridge strat might be improved with a double trick, but idk if it'd still be too low to get a double trick off of (even with the major improvements leading up to this point). If that's the case then I'm not actually sure how much time would be saved since I optimised the second half hop strat quite a lot.
For the record, flame runner 3lap with SG was projected to get around a 1:57.9/1:58.0 and flame runner 3lap without SG is projected to get around a 1:58.5/1:58.6
As seen in the comparison, this currently saves 9 frames over the high trick entry. I suspect I can get it to at least double that number by the end of the night because of how quickly I threw this together (15-20 minutes).
Edit: Managed to get it to be 21 frames faster than high trick entry.
People have tried numerous ways to get a Bowser's Castle supergrind to work, using these stairs, using the offroad next to the stairs, and using any of the geysers in many directions. I can say with experience that none of these worked, as I have tested all of them at least two or three times each over the past 3 years.
What makes this different to the ideas we had before is the use of the shooting star, an outside drifting bike (ODB). ODBs have a different "range" of facing angles they can start supergrinds at relative to the direction you want to supergrind in. Inside drifting bikes have their own range, which has its limits, preventing something like Ancient's recent GV supergrind or this one. This range includes starting it facing forwards and moving sideways already, using the sideways momentum from a drift or hop (which is also exclusive to ODBs).
This is the first original Nintendo track supergrind strat I have found in well over a year and a half (618 days or 20 months) so I am very pleased that this worked as well as it did. Fingers crossed that I can improve it to save enough time to make the shooting star and the supergrind viable for glitch flap!
While writing this description I thought of another supergrind idea :o
Original supergrind strat on left side by Ancient. Below are links to the progress that has been made and the frame counter values when we reach the second ramp.
Release video: youtu.be/Cwjs7buORPI - frame 759
Improvement: youtu.be/etf66b5_oTA - frame 746
Lap 1 progress: youtu.be/-lZ_uNOa3ec - frame 746
Prelim full lap 1: youtu.be/se5s2K4Kz9Q - frame 746
Ghost in this video (by Ancient and ThatsSlick) - frame 737
Player in this video (by myself) - frame 735
Potential - frame 72x
Special thanks to DwainiumB for requesting I test this.
ddr is hard
current rta bkt is 1:15.632 (~7.5s slower)
dry bowser might be faster but we're optimising both characters' flaps since they are too close to tell just from stats
sg setup strat by marth
all inputs by me
ghost is current BKT
if you think spiral looks weird it's because it does. your drift gradually gets wider the longer you hold it so redrifting before the miniturbo is charged allows the drift near the end of the spiral to go much tighter than if you were to continue chaining miniturbos.
Probably not going to finish this TAS now that I've been told kart is probably faster.
i.e. a prelim TAS made to demonstrate strats
Previous BKT, on v2 (49.596 by MilesAlley66): youtube.com/watch?v=Fu-_bas1yBY
Previous BKT, on v1 (48.991 by DrakeTheBeast): youtube.com/watch?v=iMRE2izsnKc
This could be improved in 3 ways.
1. The ending is NOT optimised, however this doesn't particularly matter, as you'll see in the next 2 points.
2. The shroomstrat in Jellopuff and my submission was not suitable to allow this route to be maxed (we used 2 mushrooms before the dash cut spot and the dash cut requires 2 mushrooms to work). The mushroom at the beginning should be replaced with a mushroom to boost through the long mushroom section at 100 instead of 73 km/h
3. CampbellMop showed (in his DQ run) that it was possible to do the 1-pass starting boost panel strat with mach bike by getting stuck in the ground to do a large hop that minimises the boost time (therefore maximising the drift at lower speed, allowing the 1-pass strat to be possible). So, time could be saved from using a faster vehicle, performing t and also gaining time at the dash cut (due to Twinkle Star / Shooting star requiring awkward setup angle and getting bad exit angle)
Fun fact: this run was actually made before the task ended so if I had thought of this in the span of the task running, I could have got this time or better
0:00 Following the rules, the fastest combination is Daisy on the Standard Bike M, which has a base speed of 80.30. There were a couple people who didn't check the stats of medium vehicles and assumed Zip Zip was faster. Daisy on the Zip Zip has a base speed of 79.77. I was not one of these people, as I know my way around CampbellMop's stat sheet (docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZbrFItAoVqMiZP6n6vUEjjlJkK-uCdWkfY6U5g2kv-w/edit#gid=984220244).
0:02 Standard Bike M is the kind of vehicle that can slide but only while not holding A (some can't slide at all, some can but only when A isn't held, and some can always), so I perform the current best start slide known for this type of vehicle. Start slides just move you forward before the race begins. When the race begins, I do a readjustment which turns me faster than a straight wheelie.
0:10 Because I restrict myself to less time due to being a competition admin, I didn't spend a lot of time routing or strat testing this task, so I logically assumed Justin strat would be slower due to offroad glitch but didn't realise how much the shortcut saved. I also didn't test shroomspots and therefore I didn't test using mushrooms to go 100 over long driving sections, which proved useful in the top few placings.
0:15 Yes, the way I do these turns is faster than what you might think would be. If you watch 6th place in comparison to mine in the result video you will see that he loses a lot of time in that section. There's no simple objective explanation for why these are faster but through lots of rounds of optimisation, I'm confident that they are.
0:24 I performed these turns very badly. See 4th through 6th place for a good representation of an optimal turn here.
0:28 I made this look easy. It is not. Green mushrooms are still unimaginably bouncy, even though they don't have bouncy collision. Getting the RFH I wanted on the first sequence and the sticks on the second sequence took the majority of my time working on this TAS.
0:32 "Isn't the speed cap 73?" Say hello to mushroom abuse, where touching the edge of a mushroom in weird ways and performing side trick abuse can bring your speed up to more than the speed lock allows. With outside drift, it turns out that you don't even have to perform real mushroom abuse to get the speed benefits from it. You just have to be using the sideways momentum from the oustide drift and side trick abuse. 4th and 1st place showcase the usefulness of this very well and you'll see plenty more in the Task 20 results video.
0:34 see the comment two paragraphs above
0:37 similar to the old last turn strategy on GV when it was using outside drift, it's better to drift right here so that you can get sideways momentum left. Everyone who does this does it differently. What I do in my run is the best for my combination of approach position, timing, and angle. Yes you can trigger the lap from the wall. I'm not sure if it's possible to do this at the extreme left side of the wall but it obviously works where I do it.
And now for the TAF...
0:43 I convert the sideways momentum from the wall into outside drift sideways hopping momentum (comparable to side trick abuse) and accelerate.
0:45 I cancel my sideways momentum and get immediately decelerated below 10 speed, forcing me into a SSMT (comparable to wade trick abuse)
0:48 By wheelieing at the right time while accelerating from a boost, I give myself a large pocket of airtime, where I reo drift out of that pocket, which always looks cool :p
0:54 Slowing down here while making it look like I used instant finish code (sets your inputs to default 0,0 which is full down left - netural is 7,7), however it's really difficult to slow down on these without falling off.
1:02 Certified CampbellMop instant finish fakeout. Again I struggled to turn around without falling off.
1:08 I originally planned on either wallclipping up to get back on the track shroomless (as I had already exhausted all my mushrooms), but getting knockback from the wall to land on the edge of the mushroom, and barrel roll seemed way cooler.
1:13 I decided to use infinite mushrooms code (and eventually had to get Vabold to use that code on stream so that we could show my full TAF) so that I could escape from the green mushroom back on to the track. This is harder than it looks.
1:24 I use a mushroom off the boost pad to give myself sideways momentum at 100 speed so that I can use another mushroom to perform side trick abuse on a red mushroom and land on the wall, riding it along, barely not falling on to the ground, riding across to the other side, and then getting held in place due to the wall holding me up, even though I'm facing the other way. Coolest part imo
Full explanation can be found here: http://tasvideos.org/7078S.html
Pretty cool glitch if you ask me.
(Originally uploaded on 25 September 2020)
Rerecords: 112 (yes this low)