Uploaded December 2025 | Updated September 2026, 1 week ago
In this episode, John welcomes Mark Vernon to discuss his two books, 'Dante's Divine Comedy: A Guide for the Spiritual Journey' and 'Awake: William Blake and the Imagination'. They explore the profound psychological, philosophical, and spiritual insights offered by Dante and Blake, touching upon topics like pilgrimage, the imaginal, and the role of the imagination in renewing perception. Mark shares his experiences and how these works resonate with contemporary cognitive science and spirituality. The conversation delves deep into understanding the connections between ancient wisdom and modern thought.
Mark Vernon is a writer, psychotherapist, and philosopher whose work explores the meeting point of spirituality, psychology, and philosophy. Based in London, his background in physics, theology, and psychotherapy shapes a multidisciplinary approach that bridges ancient wisdom traditions with contemporary understandings of the mind and meaning.
Learn more about Mark Vernon’s work: markvernon.com
Instagram: instagram.com/platospodcasts/?hl=en
Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/mark-vernon-b6291719/?originalSubdomain=uk
Awake: William Blake and the Power of Imagination — by Mark Vernon: markvernon.com/awake-william-blake-and-the-power-of-imagination-a-conversation-with-jane-clark-and-nikos-yiangou
The Divine Comedy — by Dante Alighieri: gutenberg.org/ebooks/8800
A World in a Grain of Sand — William Blake’s poem reference (“Auguries of Innocence”): poetryfoundation.org/poems/43650/auguries-of-innocence
—
00:00 Welcome to the Lectern
01:00 Discussing Dante's Divine Comedy
02:30 Exploring William Blake's work
04:00 Mark Vernon's background and inspirations
07:00 The philosophy and impact of pilgrimage
10:00 Dante's pilgrimage and personal experiences
19:00 The nature of Dante's poem
24:30 Addressing controversial topics in Dante's work
31:00 The in-between and the imaginal
33:30 Triston's predictive processing
35:00 The brain's predictive nature
35:30 Deep learning and pattern recognition
36:00 Metacognition and future self
38:30 Blake's visionary experiences
39:00 The power of imagination
41:02 “We don’t hear sound waves — we hear meaning. That’s how strong the imaginal is.”
56:00 Confident imagination and fierce critique
—
Ideas, People, and Works Mentioned in this Episode
Pilgrimage as a Meta-Practice
Beyond Human and the More-Than-Human World
Ecology of Practices and Sacred Participation
Reverence, Humility, and Inner Transformation
Chronos, Kairos, and Aion – Layers of Time
Tourist, Explorer, and Pilgrim as Archetypes
Meta-Noetic Passage and Transformation
Relevance Realization and Cognitive Science
Integration and the Covenant of Return
Threshold and Passage as Spiritual Acts
Sacredness, Mystery, and the Practice of Presence
Ian McGilchrist – The Master and His Emissary
Francis Weller – The Wild Edge of Sorrow
David Whyte – Everything Is Waiting for You
Byung-Chul Han – The Scent of Time
Christos Yannaras – The Freedom of Morality
William Desmond – Philosopher of the Between
Charles Taylor – A Secular Age
Hartmut Rosa – Resonance and Modernity
Thich Nhat Hanh Wa– lkt”
Hajime Tanabe
Levinas
Martin Buber
Maximus the Confessor and Norman Russell
Vanessa Machado de Oliveira
Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 12 – The Faces of God
Camino de Santiago and Shikoku Pilgrimage
Philosophy, Ecology, and Spiritual Renewal
—
Follow John Vervaeke
johnvervaeke.com
https://x.com/DrJohnVervaeke
youtube.com/@johnvervaeke
patreon.com/johnvervaeke
—
Thank you for watching!
In this episode, John welcomes Mark Vernon to discuss his two books, 'Dante's Divine Comedy: A Guide for the Spiritual Journey' and 'Awake: William Blake and the Imagination'. They explore the profound psychological, philosophical, and spiritual insights offered by Dante and Blake, touching upon topics like pilgrimage, the imaginal, and the role of the imagination in renewing perception. Mark shares his experiences and how these works resonate with contemporary cognitive science and spirituality. The conversation delves deep into understanding the connections between ancient wisdom and modern thought.
Mark Vernon is a writer, psychotherapist, and philosopher whose work explores the meeting point of spirituality, psychology, and philosophy. Based in London, his background in physics, theology, and psychotherapy shapes a multidisciplinary approach that bridges ancient wisdom traditions with contemporary understandings of the mind and meaning.
Learn more about Mark Vernon’s work: markvernon.com
Instagram: instagram.com/platospodcasts/?hl=en
Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/mark-vernon-b6291719/?originalSubdomain=uk
Awake: William Blake and the Power of Imagination — by Mark Vernon: markvernon.com/awake-william-blake-and-the-power-of-imagination-a-conversation-with-jane-clark-and-nikos-yiangou
The Divine Comedy — by Dante Alighieri: gutenberg.org/ebooks/8800
A World in a Grain of Sand — William Blake’s poem reference (“Auguries of Innocence”): poetryfoundation.org/poems/43650/auguries-of-innocence
—
00:00 Welcome to the Lectern
01:00 Discussing Dante's Divine Comedy
02:30 Exploring William Blake's work
04:00 Mark Vernon's background and inspirations
07:00 The philosophy and impact of pilgrimage
10:00 Dante's pilgrimage and personal experiences
19:00 The nature of Dante's poem
24:30 Addressing controversial topics in Dante's work
31:00 The in-between and the imaginal
33:30 Triston's predictive processing
35:00 The brain's predictive nature
35:30 Deep learning and pattern recognition
36:00 Metacognition and future self
38:30 Blake's visionary experiences
39:00 The power of imagination
41:02 “We don’t hear sound waves — we hear meaning. That’s how strong the imaginal is.”
56:00 Confident imagination and fierce critique
—
Ideas, People, and Works Mentioned in this Episode
Pilgrimage as a Meta-Practice
Beyond Human and the More-Than-Human World
Ecology of Practices and Sacred Participation
Reverence, Humility, and Inner Transformation
Chronos, Kairos, and Aion – Layers of Time
Tourist, Explorer, and Pilgrim as Archetypes
Meta-Noetic Passage and Transformation
Relevance Realization and Cognitive Science
Integration and the Covenant of Return
Threshold and Passage as Spiritual Acts
Sacredness, Mystery, and the Practice of Presence
Ian McGilchrist – The Master and His Emissary
Francis Weller – The Wild Edge of Sorrow
David Whyte – Everything Is Waiting for You
Byung-Chul Han – The Scent of Time
Christos Yannaras – The Freedom of Morality
William Desmond – Philosopher of the Between
Charles Taylor – A Secular Age
Hartmut Rosa – Resonance and Modernity
Thich Nhat Hanh Wa– lkt”
Hajime Tanabe
Levinas
Martin Buber
Maximus the Confessor and Norman Russell
Vanessa Machado de Oliveira
Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 12 – The Faces of God
Camino de Santiago and Shikoku Pilgrimage
Philosophy, Ecology, and Spiritual Renewal
—
Follow John Vervaeke
johnvervaeke.com
https://x.com/DrJohnVervaeke
youtube.com/@johnvervaeke
patreon.com/johnvervaeke
—
Thank you for watching!
