📺 No two ways about it: Operational vs historical science (Creation Magazine LIVE! 3-17)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 4 years ago 2014-04-23}

This episode tackles what is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to understanding the debate about origins: the difference between operational and historical science. Using an list of requirements for 'science' from a popular evolutionist textbook we examine evolution to see whether it meets the requirements.

The Creation Magazine LIVE! TV program is a ministry of Creation Ministries International. With offices in seven countries and more PhD scientists than any Christian organization this program features cutting edge science that supports the Bible delivered in a non-technical, visually-rich, discussion-based format.

Related Articles:
What distinguishes origins and operational science? ( )
Who's pushing bad science? ( )
It's not science! ( )
The importance of correct history and theology ( )
Science, History and the Bible ( )

📺 World winding down -- an interview with Dr Carl Wieland (Creation Magazine LIVE! 3-20)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 4 years ago 2014-01-31}

Everything (ultimately) progresses toward disorder. The second law of thermodynamics is often misused by both evolutionists and creationists. Dr Carl Wieland's clarification of this most fundamental law of science reveals powerful support for Christianity.

The Creation Magazine LIVE! TV program is a ministry of Creation Ministries International. With offices in seven countries and more PhD scientists than any Christian organization this program features cutting edge science that supports the Bible delivered in a non-technical, visually-rich, discussion-based format.

Related Articles:
World Winding Down study guide ( )
Thermodynamics and order Q&A page ( )
Thermodynamics and evolution ( )
Evolution, creation and thermodynamics ( )
Second Law of Thermodynamics - answers to critics ( )
Some thermodynamics criticisms and answers ( )

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📺 How old is the earth? (Creation Magazine LIVE! 5-05)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 2 years ago 2015-12-18}

How old is the earth? Six to ten thousand years old? Older? How precisely can a creation date be calculated? Does the Bible teach a six thousand year old Earth? Why do most scientists believe the earth is old? This episode explores one of the most controversial issues in the church, and answers these and many more questions regarding when God created.

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The biblical minimum and maximum age of the earth ( )
Jesus on the age of the earth ( )
Does the Bible teach 6000 years? ( )

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📺 Introduction to experiment design

Khan Academy^{📤 1 year ago 2016-11-11}

Introduction to experiment design. Explanatory and response variables. Control and treatment groups.

📺 What is the most 'cutting edge' fact for creation? (Creation Magazine LIVE! 3-16)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 4 years ago 2014-01-30}

Are there any facts that are so powerful that anyone who hears them would believe creation? Powerful evidences for biblical creation this week on Creation Magazine LIVE!

The Creation Magazine LIVE! TV program is a ministry of Creation Ministries International. With offices in seven countries and more PhD scientists than any Christian organization this program features cutting edge science that supports the bible delivered in a non-technical, visually-rich, discussion-based format.

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Carbon 14 found in dinosaur bones ( )
A canyon in Six Days! ( )
Genetic Mutation - Magnificent Modifier or Mega Meltdown? — Creation Magazine LIVE! (2-03) ( )
Amazed to Discover evidence for Creation ( )
Creation: "Where's the Proof?" ( )
Evidence for a Young World ( )
Evidences for a young age of the Earth and Universe ( )
Polystrate Fossils, evidence for a young earth ( )

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📺 It's Raining Men with Christian Spridon | Britain's Got Talent 2014

Britain's Got Talent^{📤 4 years ago 2014-05-26}

See more from Britain's Got Talent at

There's making an entrance and there's making an entrance Christian Spridon style. Watch David Walliam's Golden Buzzer act sing with a shower of buff guys.

SUBSCRIBE:
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📺 How Old Are Your Ears? (Hearing Test)

AsapSCIENCE^{📤 5 years ago 2013-08-06}

*MUST WATCH IN 1080p AND USE HEADPHONES*
How high can you hear? Take this 'test' to see how old your ears are!
SUBSCRIBE (it's free!):
NOTE: The 19,000 Hz frequency has been lost due to YouTube compressing the file.

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Written and created by Mitchell Moffit (twitter @mitchellmoffit) and Gregory Brown (twitter @whalewatchmeplz).

📺 How did bad things come about? -- Creation Magazine LIVE! (2-20)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 5 years ago 2013-03-08}

Why is there so much death in the world? Is God responsible for it? How should Christians answer questions about why evil exists? This week on Creation Magazine LIVE! we consider the difficulty answering these questions if Genesis is not historical.

The Creation Magazine LIVE! TV program is a ministry of Creation Ministries International. With offices in seven countries and more PhD scientists than any Christian organization this program features cutting edge science that supports the Bible delivered in a non-technical, visually-rich, discussion-based format.

Related Articles:
How did bad things come about? ( )
Cosmic and universal death from Adam's fall: an exegesis of Romans 8:19--23a ( )
Did God make pathogenic viruses? ( )
Death and Suffering Q+A page ( )

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📺 The Irrational Faith of Evolution (Creation Magazine LIVE! 6-01)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 1 year ago 2016-11-30}

The creation/evolution debate is often described as 'science VS faith'. However, everyone lives by faith. This episode explores several types of faith and shows how belief in evolution fits the category of irrational faith.

The Creation Magazine LIVE! TV program is a ministry of Creation Ministries International. With offices in seven countries and more PhD scientists than any Christian organization this program shows how the latest scientific discoveries support the Bible and refute evolution and millions of years.

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'It's not science' ( )
Faith and facts ( )
Atheism is more rational? ( )
A miracle by any other name would be … called science? ( )

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📺 Spirit Science 12 ~ The Hidden Human History Movie

Spirit Science^{📤 6 years ago 2012-01-31}

This video dives into and fully explores an alternate version of our own human history that connects a lot of dots that up until now, seemed as if random anomalies of the human race.

The story is certainly different than anything you likely have heard or seen before, but just as well - paints a very complex and yet simple picture of our history, which explains all of the world’s religions, and the state of the world today.

All of the struggles that humanity are experiencing, and even why we are struggling to begin with, is explained through this story.

For the full video description and sources, check out our website:

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📺 Aliens and UFOs - Does the Bible explain these things? - Creation Magazine LIVE! (2-10)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 5 years ago 2013-03-05}

How should Christians react to stories of strange lights in the sky and terrifying night time abductions? Aliens and UFOs and the Bible, on this week's episode.

The Creation Magazine LIVE! TV program is a ministry of Creation Ministries International. With offices in seven countries and more PhD scientists than any Christian organization this program features cutting edge science that supports the Bible delivered in a non-technical, visually-rich, discussion-based format.

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Did God create life on other planets? ( )
Aliens in your bedroom ( )
Lifting the veil on the UFO phenomenon ( )
Alien Life / UFO Questions and Answers page ( )

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Creation Answers Book ( )

📺 2012 Fiat 500 Abarth First Drive Review: The Everyman Ferrari

The Fast Lane Car^{📤 6 years ago 2012-03-03}

( ) There can be no doubt that the 2012 Fiat 500 Abarth is the everyman Ferrari. Not only is it made by the company that owns Ferrari, but it perhaps more importantly it has that exotic super car exhaust note that will send a shiver down the spine of any sports car lover. Just as importantly it also has the horsepower from its 2X inter-cooled turbo engine to backup the magnificent exhaust note. With hardly any weight and 160 HP the diminutive Fiat 500 Abarth will tear up the race track or your local neighborhood street. In the process it will also out a huge smile on your face as you floor the gas and head for your favorite twisty road.

📺 Why youth leave the church (Creation Magazine LIVE! 7-01)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 7 months ago 2017-12-19}

Surveys show that many youth who grow up in the church will leave. Today we examine these surveys and present a powerful solution that is already making a difference.

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Fallout – Vital information for pastors, leaders, and parents ( )
Fallout facts – why and when do youth fall away ( )

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📺 Kollektivet: What not to do when ugly

KollektivetTV2^{📤 5 years ago 2013-02-08}

Se Kollektivet hver fredag kl. 16:55 på TV 2!
Programmet ser du også gratis på TV 2 SUMO:

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📺 Physics and creation -- an interview with physicist Dr Jim Mason (Creation Magazine LIVE! 3-22)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 4 years ago 2014-01-31}

Can a physicist, who has a detailed knowledge of radiometric dating, really accept a recent creation? Find out in this revealing interview with physicist Dr Jim Mason as we discuss physics, dating methods and the Higgs boson 'God particle'.

The Creation Magazine LIVE! TV program is a ministry of Creation Ministries International. With offices in seven countries and more PhD scientists than any Christian organization this program features cutting edge science that supports the Bible delivered in a non-technical, visually-rich, discussion-based format.

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Physicist's god talk ( )

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📺 25 GREATEST Scientific Hoaxes In History

list25^{📤 6 years ago 2012-06-27}

You might find this hard to believe, but there have been some famous scientific hoaxes that fool many people. These scientific hoaxes were so well done, that it took a lot to prove that they were hoaxes. These are 25 greatest scientific hoaxes in history.

Once you see these scientific hoaxes, you might become cynical of everything you read. Even if you don’t, you might start checking your scientific sources. See our full list of 25 greatest scientific hoaxes (and our photo credits and sources) and be sure to leave us a comment on the video to let us know which of these scientific hoaxes you’ve heard of before:

Like our video on the greatest scientific hoaxes in history?

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The greatest scientific hoaxes almost fooled everybody. Scientific hoaxes such as crop circles, spaghetti trees, Tasaday tribe, and the perpetual motion machine may sound a bit suspect today, but there was a time when almost everyone believed these to be true. Some of the most convincing scientific hoaxes include the archaeoraptor, Piltdown man, the Fiji mermaid, the Cardiff giant, and others. Get ready, because these are the 25 greatest scientific hoaxes in history.
If you enjoyed learning about the greatest scientific hoaxes in history, you’ll enjoy these videos:

25 Mysterious And Creepy Photos That Might Never Be Explained -

25 Fake Photos That Went Viral -

📺 Evolution and pop culture (Creation Magazine LIVE! 3-19)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 4 years ago 2014-01-31}

This episode examines how pop culture influences the debate about origins. Evolution permeates not only educational institutions but also the media and entertainment industries. Many popular books, movies, video games and TV shows draw on evolutionary ideas. This week we highlight some of the evolutionary themes in popular culture.

The Creation Magazine LIVE! TV program is a ministry of Creation Ministries International. With offices in seven countries and more PhD scientists than any Christian organization this program features cutting edge science that supports the Bible delivered in a non-technical, visually-rich, discussion-based format.

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Who's transforming our society? ( )
Aliens are Coming ( )
Origin of Life ( )
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SETI-Religion or Science? ( )

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📺 How long were the Genesis days? (Creation Magazine LIVE! 7-02)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 7 months ago 2018-01-11}

Could the Genesis creation days be millions of years long? Join us as we dive into the language of the biblical text and discover how long God took to create the universe.

Related Articles:
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The numbering pattern of Genesis ( )
How could the days of Genesis 1 be literal if the sun wasn't created until the fourth day? ( )
2 Peter 3:8—'one day is like a thousand years' ( )

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📺 Is it Better to Walk or Run in the Rain?

minutephysics^{📤 5 years ago 2012-12-20}

Subscribe to MinutePhysics - it's FREE!

For recent scientific publications on the walk/rain question:

MinutePhysics is on Google+ -
And facebook -
And twitter - @minutephysics

Minute Physics provides an energetic and entertaining view of old and new problems in physics -- all in a minute!

Music by Nathaniel Schroeder

Thanks to Nima Doroud for contributions and to Perimeter Institute for support.

Created by Henry Reich Created by Henry Reich

📺 Polar bears and dogs playing

FirstscienceTV^{📤 10 years ago 2007-10-24}

A strange relationship between dogs and bears.
Taken from the show "Jailed Polar Bear" on FirstScience.tv

Download in full from:

📺 Death before sin? What type of death? (Creation Magazine LIVE! 5-04)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 2 years ago 2015-12-18}

Contrary to scripture, old earth creationists and theistic evolutionists often claim that there were animals dying long before Adam and Eve. But did creatures just live happy peaceful lives and then quietly die? What does the fossil record reveal?

Related Articles:
The problem of evil: pre-Fall animal death? ( ...)
'No death before the Fall'? ( ... )
The Fall: a cosmic catastrophe ( ... )
Cosmic and universal death from Adam’s fall: an exegesis of Romans 8:19–23a ( ...)
Is cancer ‘very good’? ( )

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📺 Was Noah’s Flood global? (Creation Magazine LIVE! 4-24)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 3 years ago 2015-04-01}

Does it matter whether it was global or local? What does the scripture actually say? If it was a global flood, where’s the evidence for it? These and other questions are answered in this episode.

The Creation Magazine LIVE! TV program is a ministry of Creation Ministries International. With offices in seven countries and more PhD scientists than any Christian organization this program shows how the latest scientific discoveries support the Bible and refute evolution and million of years.

Related Articles:
Why is origins important? (Creation Magazine LIVE! 3-18) ( )
Tracing the nations back to Babel (Creation Magazine LIVE! 3-12) ( )
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Genesis Verse-by-Verse ( )

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📺 Evolutionism Loses Berkeley Debate - 160 Professors Defeat by Creation Scientist

yashuafreak^{📤 5 years ago 2012-09-21}

Evolutionism Loses Berkeley Debate - 160 Professors Defeat bye Creation Scientist

In this video Kent Hovind defeated 160 college professors who believe in the religion of Evolutionism. They all chickened out and threw in the towel and gave up with out a fight. Instead a bunch of brainwashed college students show up to try to take on the God's Truth and defend the devil's lie. This kid's are so obviously brainwashed it is not even funny and goes further to discredit these false pseudo science teaching than even Kent's arguments. They repeatedly get up and make fools of themselves and are unable to see the basic irrationality and sheer stupidity of the arguements they are making even as Doctor Hovind tries to make it plain to them. Just as I was about to get lost in the sheer ridiculousness of there illogical reasoning, I found myself realizing I have now seen the face of those who make slanderous and malicious attacks in their comments on my very own You Tube Channel here, seemingly thinking they have won the arguing without presenting an argument, but simply by bullying ridiculing and name calling, which is, of course, irrational.

Jesus Christ Messiah Lord God Heaven Hell Life Death Salvation Eternity End Times Last Days Rapture Tribulation Armageddon Prophecy Prophet Holy Bible Truth Fact Creation Evolution Hawaii Street "Sermon (Literature Subject)" Berkely Science lie Truth Reality Fantasy Evidence Brainwashing

Jesus Christ Messiah Lord God Heaven Hell Life Death Salvation Eternity End Times Last Days Rapture Tribulation Armageddon Prophecy Prophet Holy Bible Truth Fact Creation Evolution Hawaii Street "Sermon (Literature Subject)" Berkely Science lie Truth Reality Fantasy Evidence Brainwashing "End Time (Belief)" Gospel College University Response Spirit Student Darwin Study Word Students Campus Education Debate Richard Earth Dawkins Graduation School Creation Intelligent Design Logic Proof Lamb Theory Reason Kent Genesis Institute Evil Morality Cross Hovind "Kent Hovind (Person)"

📺 One human family -- an interview with Dr Carl Wieland (Creation Magazine LIVE! 3-21)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 4 years ago 2014-01-31}

This episode provides a fascinating look at human culture, racism, slavery through the eyes of one of the fathers of the modern creation movement. Author, speaker and founder of Creation magazine Dr Carl Wieland is our guest.
Related episode: Tracing the nations back to Babel

The Creation Magazine LIVE! TV program is a ministry of Creation Ministries International. With offices in seven countries and more PhD scientists than any Christian organization this program features cutting edge science that supports the Bible delivered in a non-technical, visually-rich, discussion-based format.

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Adam and Eve Race Genetics ( )
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How did the different 'races' arise? Creation Answers Book Study Guide ( )
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Racism Q&A page ( )

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📺 Energizing your spiritual growth (Creation Magazine LIVE! 7-12)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 1 week ago 2018-08-08}

Science, creation, Genesis and spiritual growth. How do these things relate to each other?

Related Articles:
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📺 Real Science Supports the Bible

Northwest Creation Network^{📤 4 years ago 2013-10-17}

Seminar by Jonathan Sarfati Ph.D.
Seattle Creation Conference, August 2013.
Woodin Valley Baptist Church, Bothell WA.

Description:
It has become almost axiomatic to some that all science evidence supports evolution, and that Biblical creation is merely a myth. In this presentation, Dr Sarfati's presents a slew of rational and credible arguments showing that "real science" supports the Bible. Drawing on his extensive knowledge of biology, geology, fossils, radiometric dating, and more, Sarfati identifies flaw after flaw in the evolutionary worldview.

About the Speaker:
Dr. Jonathan Sarfati is a research scientist and speaker with Creation Ministries International ( ). He was born in Ararat, Australia in 1964. He moved to New Zealand as a child and later studied science at Victoria University of Wellington. He obtained a B.Sc. (Hons.) in Chemistry with two physics papers substituted (nuclear and condensed matter physics). His Ph.D. in Chemistry was awarded for a thesis entitled 'A Spectroscopic Study of some Chalcogenide Ring and Cage Molecules'. He has co-authored papers in mainstream scientific journals on high temperature superconductors and selenium-containing ring and cage-shaped molecules. He also had a co-authored paper on high-temperature superconductors published in Nature when he was 22.

_______________________________________________________

This seminar was recorded during the 2013 Seattle Creation Conference at Woodin Valley Baptist Church in Bothell Washington ( ). The NW Creation Network organizes numerous educational programs each year, which feature presentations by speakers, scientists, and authors who are dedicated to defending the Bible and the Christian worldview. These events are open to the public and free to attend.

Northwest Creation Network

Seattle Creation Conference

Apologetics Symposium - monthly program (live streaming)

Purchase educational resources at our Creation Science Store

Learn more about how science supports the Bible at our CreationWiki: Encyclopedia of Creation Science.

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📺 Continental drift and the Bible -- Creation Magazine LIVE! (2-07)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 5 years ago 2013-03-01}

Have the continents moved apart? If so, when? Creationist Antonio Snider, the first person to publish on continental drift proposed that the continents separated during the Flood. Today his original idea is backed by cutting-edge computer modelling.

The Creation Magazine LIVE! TV program is a ministry of Creation Ministries International. With offices in seven countries and more PhD scientists than any Christian organization this program features cutting edge science that supports the Bible delivered in a non-technical, visually-rich, discussion-based format.

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Catastrophic plate tectonics: the geophysical context of the Genesis Flood ( )
Probing the earth's deep places-Interview with plate tectonics expert Dr John Baumgardner ( )

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📺 Do we all come from two people? (Creation Magazine LIVE! 3-15)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 4 years ago 2014-01-30}

Many scientists say that the evidence from genetics incontrovertibly shows humans did not originate from a single pair. This episode looks at specific arguments by bible skeptics and shows how wrong they are.

The Creation Magazine LIVE! TV program is a ministry of Creation Ministries International. With offices in seven countries and more PhD scientists than any Christian organization this program features cutting edge science that supports the Bible delivered in a non-technical, visually-rich, discussion-based format.

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Could Adam and Eve have given rise to all modern races? ( )
A shrinking date for 'Eve' ( )
The 16 Grandsons of Noah ( )
Tracing the nations back to Babel ( )
BioLogos, theistic evolution and the Pelagian heresy ( )
Racism Q&A page ( )

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Evolution's Fatal Fruit ( )
Mitochondrial Eve and the Three Daughters of Noah ( )

📺 Information and the origin of life - Did cells write their own software?

CMIcreationstation^{📤 4 years ago 2014-01-30}

What is something computers and humans have in common which constantly needs upgrading in computers but not in humans? The answer is software. You might not have realized that you have software but inside the nucleus of each of your cells a program is written in the form of three billion DNA letters.

Intelligent programmers write computer software but what about living things? Evolutionists tell us that the information in the first living cell just appeared by itself, with no intelligent input required. But is that possible? The answer is a resounding no.

Even one of Australia's best known scientists, Paul Davies, conceded that, "There is no know law of physics able to crate information from nothing." And perhaps that's why, in a New Scientist article, he lamented, "How did stupid atoms spontaneously write their own software? Nobody knows."

Related Articles:
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Information Theory Q&A's
Is DNA Coded Information

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Codes and Creation

📺 Radiocarbon found in Diamonds

CMIcreationstation^{📤 5 years ago 2013-03-06}

You've probably heard that, 'diamonds are a girl's best friend', but diamonds also teach us an important lesson about the age of the earth.

Diamonds are made of carbon. One rare type of carbon—known as carbon 14—is radioactive, which means that it breaks down over time. By measuring the amount of decay, scientists estimate how old something is. Some people think that carbon 14 dating proves things happened millions of years ago. But that is wrong, because carbon 14 decays so fast that something a million years old could not contain any carbon 14.

Geophysicist Dr John Baumgardner recently investigated the level of carbon 14 in diamonds. Many would've considered such research pointless, because the diamonds were supposedly over a billion years old, which meant all carbon 14 should've decayed. But the radiocarbon labs detected significant levels of carbon 14, which suggests the diamonds are much younger; only thousands of years.

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Radioactive dating anomalies

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📺 Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham - HD (Official)

Answers in Genesis^{📤 4 years ago 2014-01-31}

Starts at 13:14

Is creation a viable model of origins in today's modern, scientific era? Leading creation apologist and bestselling Christian author Ken Ham is joined at the Creation Museum by Emmy Award-winning science educator and CEO of the Planetary Society Bill Nye. To see Bill Nye's arguments debunked visit .

📺 Dinosaurs and humans -- did they live together? -- Creation Magazine LIVE! (2-09)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 5 years ago 2013-03-05}

What fossil evidence supports dinosaurs and humans living at the same time? Do scientists ever find dinosaurs buried with animals that were not supposed to have evolved yet?

The Creation Magazine LIVE! TV program is a ministry of Creation Ministries International. With offices in seven countries and more PhD scientists than any Christian organization this program features cutting edge science that supports the Bible delivered in a non-technical, visually-rich, discussion-based format.

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Dinosaur soft tissue and protein—even more confirmation! ( )
Dinosaur bones—just how old are they really? ( )
Dinosaur Questions and Answers page ( )
Vestigial organs revisited ( )

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📺 Junk DNA? -- There's no such thing!

CMIcreationstation^{📤 4 years ago 2014-01-31}

Many biologists have long touted that much of our DNA is useless junk. Richard Dawkins put it this way. "Can we measure the information capacity of that portion of the genome which is actually used? We can at least estimate it. In the case of the human genome it is about 2%"

Thus, to Dawkins, the other 98% of the genome was useless junk. But these statements are based on ignorance. Just because we aren't aware of the function of much of our DNA, does not mean it has no function. A recent paper in the prestigious journal of Nature has shown that about 93% of the human genome is used, not 2 or 3%, and further studies may raise this number to 100%

So the whole genome is probably used and there is no such thing as "Junk DNA." It's an idea that belongs in the trash can, as bible-believing scientists said when the idea was proposed.

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The Slow Death of Junk DNA

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📺 The key to understanding the creation/evolution debate (Creation Magazine LIVE! 4-07)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 3 years ago 2015-01-17}

If the creation/evolution debate was simply about empirical science, the debate would have been over with years ago. So, why is it that the debate continues? Why can’t people from opposing views understand the other person’s position? Learn the key concept that will unlock your understanding of the origins debate.

The Creation Magazine LIVE! TV program is a ministry of Creation Ministries International. With offices in seven countries and more PhD scientists than any Christian organization this program shows how the latest scientific discoveries support the Bible and refute evolution and million of years.

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📺 Homology -- do common structures imply common ancestor? (Creation Magazine LIVE! 3-24)

CMIcreationstation^{📤 4 years ago 2014-02-01}

Similarities in living things is hailed as knock-down evidence for evolution. This week, find out why it actually powerfully supports Biblical creation.

The Creation Magazine LIVE! TV program is a ministry of Creation Ministries International. With offices in seven countries and more PhD scientists than any Christian organization this program features cutting edge science that supports the Bible delivered in a non-technical, visually-rich, discussion-based format.

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Do similarities between creatures prove that they had a common ancestor? (from the Creation Answers Book, Chapter 7) ( )
Homology made simple ( )
Are look-alikes related? ( )
Apes and Humans: 99% similar? (Creation Magazine LIVE! Season 2 Ep# 23) ( )
Estimates of Human-Chimp DNA similarity revaluated using omitted data ( )
Does Homology provide evidence for evolutionary naturalism? ( )

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📺 No two ways about it: Operational vs historical science (Creation Magazine LIVE! 3-17)